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[i2amroy]

Don't wonder about the limits of Willing Suspension of Disbelief, because you will always fall short in any given circumstance.

(I mean I know if I was playing a game in most cases I'd much rather see #3 or #1 over #2, simply because it would be a much more enjoyable boss battle than me gunning my way through hordes of fairly harmless mooks.)

[SealyStar]

Mind you I am biased because the start of the game has the main character acting as stupid as humanly possible...

I actually like Bioshock Infinite but this particularly point is a legitimately huge problem. The reason the game relies so much on scripted sequences is simply because the story relies on Booker Dewitt being a bigger violent moron than even the lowest common denominator of player would choose to play as.

[Neonivek]

Mind you I am biased because the start of the game has the main character acting as stupid as humanly possible...

I actually like Bioshock Infinite but this particularly point is a legitimately huge problem. The reason the game relies so much on scripted sequences is simply because the story relies on Booker Dewitt being a bigger violent moron than even the lowest common denominator of player would choose to play as.

I could probably learn to like it. I just need to get to the part of the game where it stops trying to be as aggressively moronic all the dang time!

"Ohh no the thing that is supposed to make sure I am alive is trying to kill me... And that is just how it was built!"

[penguinofhonor]

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[i2amroy]

Sure, but there are plenty of instances where the cool and interesting enemies and my combat with them are some of the only reasons I would consider buying and playing the game. There's plenty of games out there that feature some form of "awesome combat" as one of their selling points, and while plots are nice things to have they aren't necessarily required to have a game be enjoyable and fun.

[Neonivek]

Sure, but there are plenty of instances where the cool and interesting enemies and my combat with them are some of the only reasons I would consider buying and playing the game. There's plenty of games out there that feature some form of "awesome combat" as one of their selling points, and while plots are nice things to have they aren't necessarily required to have a game be enjoyable and fun.

Indeed but these aren't games that kind of have the plot... on the side. I am hardly going to riot over the story of Doom or Quake because it doesn't feature 30 minute story sections.

Bioshock Infinite WANTS you to know it has a plot... an idiot plot... a braindead idiot plot that relies on contrivances and plotholes... But a plot nonetheless... and it keeps beating you over the head with it.

And yes almost all the cool enemies in Bioshock Infinite so far are just "Cool, but they make no sense".

I remember how in Bioshock the Big Daddies were definitely cool... AND they made sense. They were clearly repurposed from maintenance diving suits.

Anyhow I am sure EVENTUALLY Bioshock Infinite stops showing me the dumb... I mean I am only 4 hours into the game...

[penguinofhonor]

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[i2amroy]

I'd like to think that there's a bit more to my options then "virtually no plot" and "best intertwining plot ever", just like there's a fair bit more of a spectrum to games than "drama-driven RPG story" and "totally plotless fighting game". In this case I view it as a sliding scale, where the better the gameplay is the less strong the plot can be (though of course the best games are almost always good on both), as long as the addition of the two clears a certain mark. I mean if you look at it something like 80% of RPG's have virtually identical plots (Bad Guy breaks into the kingdom and steals princess/McGuffin, home town gets wiped off the face of the earth, travel around the country collecting your McGuffins to beat the bad guy, beat up the bad guy) but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy it.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'd still be perfectly okay with a game being lackluster in one area (such as taking a B-rate plot or character seriously) as long as it is good enough in other areas to make up for it and it doesn't dip below the "this is absolute shit" threshold. Nor do I see the only options being "make a good plot" or "don't have a plot". I mean even bad plots can sometimes have good moments, and I know that I certainly enjoy games that make at least an attempt at having a bit of story (even if it's not the best one) much more than simple "fight this, then fight that, then fight the boss, yay you won" games.

[Neonivek]

It just depends on how the game presents its narrative and how the gameplay is.

Think back to my Rant about "The Purge"

In that movie the whole "It could actually happen" day where all crime is legal is sort of a scary concept and the movie alludes to it being a cover for class warfare and things like that.

Yeah if I unpack it... it is a dumb idea... but there is never a need for me to be critical of this (Heck the only Nitpick I have that was never poked at... is "what stops people from torching houses?")

But in the movie it does everything in its power to poke holes in its own plot and showing how the purge just flat out doesn't work even in universe.

...

Bioshock Infinite is the same way.

The Guardian of the girl is a giant mechanical Budgie... Ok that is fine... It could be like a guard meant to fight off people or ships that try to kidnap the girl or attack the monument.

But the game takes this simple concept and makes it dumber by specifically stating that the bird was "Quote unquote" to keep her in the tower... as in specifically made for her... and it does this in such a violent and destructive way, even being too large for the building she is in, that it makes no sense.

It forces you to think about what is happening on the screen.

[penguinofhonor]

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[Zangi]

Today, I have determined that I am not afraid of heights.  Went to some sort of adventure park thing with my sister's family group thing.  It was marketed to me as just simply ziplining, but it is also climbing along rope things from tree to tree.

Bonus points in that every line between trees is set-up uniquely, except for the ziplines.

[i2amroy]

Bioshock infinite stuff:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If you check out the Burial at Sea - Episode 2 story then you find out a bit more behind the story. They first tried with several other types of things but none of them ended up working. In the end the bond only happened purely though accident with the Songbird. And when you only have one working prototype you make do with what you've got.

When gamers are complacent about this sort of thing, many developers don't even try to write a good plot. I think that's a shame.

Honestly as long as the game isn't totally worthless then I could care less if it's a B or a C game, as long as the price is low enough that my enjoyment/cost ratio beats a certain point. I have enough time, and I'd still consider playing a game only worth half an hour's worth of entertainment if it only cost $1. I mean sure it's not going to be as good as spending my time playing an awesome game, but there are only so many awesome games out there that I enjoy, and you can only play through each one so many times before you burn out that it's good to have some mindless filler to add into my game "diet" from time to time (though there is of course a lower limit, and I do prefer awesome games over lesser ones, which does create a pressure towards better written games, thus avoiding the paradox of "well then every game will eventually be utter trash").

[penguinofhonor]

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[i2amroy]

Fair enough.

[Neonivek]

I don't think you guys really have different priorities.

You both basically have been saying that "Just because the story isn't good it doesn't mean the game isn't enjoyable"