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[Aerie]

And this is why the police are fucking inept.

Please do not make sweeping generalizations about a group of people based on the misinformed actions of a few. The overwhelming majority of police officers are intelligent and make rational choices in the line of duty. This incident wasn't so much caused by ineptitude or stupidity as it was by a lack of clear communication and incorrect decision-making based on that lack of communication.

[miauw62]

My graphics driver derped out. It quickly fixed itself but a few minutes after that, I could move my mouse, and see it moving, but clicking did nothing. Wut.

[kaijyuu]

And this is why the police are fucking inept.

Please do not make sweeping generalizations about a group of people based on the misinformed actions of a few. The overwhelming majority of police officers are intelligent and make rational choices in the line of duty. This incident wasn't so much caused by ineptitude or stupidity as it was by a lack of clear communication and incorrect decision-making based on that lack of communication.

All but the 3 officers given permission to give chase were making irrational decisions and were utterly inept, costing two people their lives.

I'll agree the majority of officers are reasonably competent, but said officers never do much of anything besides hand out speeding tickets and turn in their paperwork on time. Only the bad cops make it into the papers.


Anyway, my standard questions when it comes to police misbehavior are:
- Was protocol followed?
-- If so, what needs to be changed so this doesn't happen again?
-- If not, what needs to be done to discourage deviating from protocol in the future?

Sounds to me like protocol was not followed, so yes, we should have several charges of murder on our hands, and at least a hell of a lot of people fired.

[MaximumZero]

I'd have to defer to Truean on that particular type of case, but Kai's solution sounds reasonable. Personally, I'd like to see these "officers" locked away as murderers, or at least for inciting/participating in a riot that resulted in death. However, my station in life has left me cynical enough that I doubt that these things will happen.

[Graknorke]

-snop-

What. That's stupid.

[GlyphGryph]

Please do not make sweeping generalizations about a group of people based on the misinformed actions of a few. The overwhelming majority of police officers are intelligent and make rational choices in the line of duty. This incident wasn't so much caused by ineptitude or stupidity as it was by a lack of clear communication and incorrect decision-making based on that lack of communication.

The majority of police officers act like terrible people, because even if they don't start that way and even if they aren't that way outside of the job (at least at first) they end up deeply enmeshed in a system that encourages them to be terrible people in order to fit in and succeed. While there are exceptions, departments with high standards and good policies, in most police departments around the country police are little more than gangsters with official recognition. They believe the law does not apply to them, that they are better than non-police-officers, that their life and safety is more important than non-police-officers, and that protecting their "brothers in blue" is far, far more important than upholding the law.

Of course, there are exceptions. But this isn't a case of bad apples. This is a case of a few good apples in a barrel of bad ones somehow able to resist the rot. Even if you only toss good apples in from now on, most won't stay good for long in that kind of environment.

This comes from someone with police officers in the family, who knows quite a few police officers, and who has interacted with the police in a lot of different places around the US. Even the ones that aren't outright bad have a really bad understanding of who they are and what their role is - they either see themselves as a budding action hero, or someone with a sweet gig that lets them play the bully they always wanted to be, or even both. Very few of them see themselves as servants of the public.

The overwhelming majority of police officers are poorly trained, poorly supervised, and poorly disciplined when they fuck up. I have a lot of sympathy for them - a good portion of them get into the force with good intent. But they still end up as bad people doing bad things all the same, and the ones who actually stay dedicated to the ideals every police officer is supposed to uphold seem to get a FUCKTON of shit thrown at them constantly.

Perhaps they made intelligent and rational choices based on the information they had available. But that does not mean they made "good" choices based on that information. When you value yourself, or your friends, or your own sense of adventure over the well-being of the public, the intelligent and rational choice leads to... well... this. Which is why we have laws and rules, in large part - so that the "intelligent and rational" choice also happens to be the correct choice, the choice we want them to make.

In the police force, this pressure generally isn't brought to bear except for protecting your "brothers", so it's no surprise we get so many people fucking up so badly and horrible miscarriages of justice as the result. They made rational and intelligent choices that also happen to be horribly immoral and fucked up choices, because that's what the system and environment encourages.

[MonkeyHead]

Please do not make sweeping generalizations about a group of people based on the misinformed actions of a few. The overwhelming majority of police officers are intelligent and make rational choices in the line of duty. This incident wasn't so much caused by ineptitude or stupidity as it was by a lack of clear communication and incorrect decision-making based on that lack of communication.

The majority of police officers act like terrible people, because even if they don't start that way and even if they aren't that way outside of the job (at least at first) they end up deeply enmeshed in a system that encourages them to be terrible people in order to fit in and succeed. While there are exceptions, departments with high standards and good policies, in most police departments around the country police are little more than gangsters with official recognition. They believe the law does not apply to them, that they are better than non-police-officers, that their life and safety is more important than non-police-officers, and that protecting their "brothers in blue" is far, far more important than upholding the law.

Of course, there are exceptions. But this isn't a case of bad apples. This is a case of a few good apples in a barrel of bad ones somehow able to resist the rot. Even if you only toss good apples in from now on, most won't stay good for long in that kind of environment.

This comes from someone with police officers in the family, who knows quite a few police officers, and who has interacted with the police in a lot of different places around the US. Even the ones that aren't outright bad have a really bad understanding of who they are and what their role is - they either see themselves as a budding action hero, or someone with a sweet gig that lets them play the bully they always wanted to be, or even both. Very few of them see themselves as servants of the public.

The overwhelming majority of police officers are poorly trained, poorly supervised, and poorly disciplined when they fuck up. I have a lot of sympathy for them - a good portion of them get into the force with good intent. But they still end up as bad people doing bad things all the same, and the ones who actually stay dedicated to the ideals every police officer is supposed to uphold seem to get a FUCKTON of shit thrown at them constantly.

Perhaps they made intelligent and rational choices based on the information they had available. But that does not mean they made "good" choices based on that information. When you value yourself, or your friends, or your own sense of adventure over the well-being of the public, the intelligent and rational choice leads to... well... this. Which is why we have laws and rules, in large part - so that the "intelligent and rational" choice also happens to be the correct choice, the choice we want them to make.

In the police force, this pressure generally isn't brought to bear except for protecting your "brothers", so it's no surprise we get so many people fucking up so badly and horrible miscarriages of justice as the result. They made rational and intelligent choices that also happen to be horribly immoral and fucked up choices, because that's what the system and environment encourages.

This seems so alien to the interactions that I have had with the police here in the UK. Is there really that big a cultural difference between the two systems? If so, why?

[GlyphGryph]

Yes. Well, assuming the UK police are actually that different, yes.

Note that this DOES vary from place to place and organization to organization. Departments are in many ways their own entities, and there's a few that are pretty good, and several that are flawed but aren't nearly as bad as what I described. There are also some that are much, much worse. But what I describes is pretty normal.

[Graknorke]

Police in the UK can be dicks too.
They don't shoot people but they're often harsher and ruder than they have to be.

[Reelya]

Yes.

Note that this DOES vary from place to place and organization to organization. Departments are in many ways their own entities, and there's a few that a pretty good, and several that are flawed but aren't nearly as bad as what I described. There are also some that are much, much worse. But what I describes is pretty normal.

One good example is Sherrif Joe Arpaio in Arizona who set up his own little concentrations camps that violate the Geneva convention and federal law. Such antics wouldn't ever happen in the UK. (Joe Arpaio has even been known to trump up charges against political rivals and throw them in his personal gulag).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Tent City

Arpaio set up a "Tent City" as an extension of the Maricopa County Jail.[32] Arpaio has described Tent City as a concentration camp.[33] Tent City is located in a yard next to a more permanent structure containing toilets, showers, and an area for meals.[34] It has become notable particularly because of Phoenix's extreme temperatures.

On July 2, 2011, when the temperature in Phoenix hit 118 °F (48 °C), Arpaio measured the temperature inside Tent City at 145 °F (63 °C). Some inmates complained that fans near their beds were not working, and that their shoes were melting from the heat. In 1997, Amnesty International published a report on Arpaio's jails which found that Tent City is not an "adequate or humane alternative to housing inmates in suitable ... jail facilities." Tent City is criticized by groups contending that there are violations of human and constitutional rights. Those critical of Arpaio also point out that the vast majority of inmates within Tent City have not been convicted; rather, they are merely awaiting trial.[...]Federal Judge Neil V. Wake ruled in 2008, and again in 2010, that the Maricopa County jails violated the constitutional rights of inmates in medical and other care related issues.[30][31] This ruling was a result of a lawsuit brought by the ACLU, which alleged that "Arpaio routinely abused pre-trial detainees at Maricopa County Jail by feeding them moldy bread, rotten fruit and other contaminated food, housing them in cells so hot as to endanger their health, denying them care for serious medical and mental health needs and keeping them packed as tightly as sardines in holding cells for days at a time during intake."[...]Judge Wake's 2008 ruling, which required Arpaio to end severe overcrowding and ensure all detainees receive necessary medical and mental health care, be given uninterrupted access to all medications prescribed by correctional medical staff, be given access to exercise and to sinks, toilets, toilet paper and soap and be served food that meets or exceeds the U.S. Department of Agriculture's dietary guidelines.[56]

Yeah, he keeps suspects who are awaiting trial in Geneva-convention breaching inhuman conditions. But, funnily enough, his office doesn't take rape or child molestation allegations very seriously even when there's extremely good physical evidence.

[Loud Whispers]

This seems so alien to the interactions that I have had with the police here in the UK. Is there really that big a cultural difference between the two systems? If so, why?

No gun means that people think things through more. Something that is very much brought to mind by Tibetan protests is that someone with a gun is going to use force to replace their mind and their reasoning, because they have that power.

[pisskop]

Owning a gun doesn't null reasoning.

Not owning a gun doesn't promote peaceful negotiations.

Everyone may not think so, but for me having a gun is assurance, peace of mind.  That's why I bought one for my mother.

I don't iunderstand this idea that gun ownership causes RAGE or that having a gun around makes everything more dangereous.  Guns have always been a part of America, from its birth to high school marching bands to paint ball to cowboys and indians.

[Korbac]

I think the main problem with guns in America is that when someone goes nuts they can just take their gun and go on a spree, give or take circumstances.

In Britain you either have to have been planning this for a long time, or you spontaneously go nuts and grab a knife instead, which, while still potentially deadly, isn't quite as damaging and is easier to run away from.

/oversimplification

[Lightningfalcon]

In my somewhat large city/town, our police force is rather respectable.  Enough so that when one was killed in a shooting that you couldn't pass by a single church that didn't have his picture on it.  So I have a really hard time comparing my image of the police to everyone's else image.  I guess we just have one of those rare departments, or something. 
The rural area where I live has a very low crime rate due to how almost everyone has a small arsenal of guns.  You want to steal from a house because the owner is on vacation?  Better make sure that none of the neighbors saw you drive up. 

[Lord Shonus]

Not in the least. Outside of a few places (LA being prominent), police brutality was fairly rare in the US until the late 80s. American police have carried a gun as standard issue for most of a century now. The chief problems seem to be a combination of total contempt of the police (and the very concept of law and order) by a large percentage of the population, combined with an increasing refusal to take personal responsibility for one's actions. The former is an obvious cause of tension between police and civilians, while the latter results in far more work and responsibility being shoved on the police force, which not only increases an already excessive work load, but helps to attract the sort of person that likes power, which compounds the former issue and increases the lack of trust. A secondary issue is that most police departments are under extremely tight budgets, which reduces the amount of training that officers can receive. The situation under discussion is a textbook case of training breaking down, which would likely have been averted had the funds for such training been available. (It's worth noting that Governor Kasich has massively cut the state funding that's supposed to help pay for city services such as libraries, education, and police forces.) Finally, the police departments tend to close ranks when something happens instead of dealing with the problem.

The "Fuck the Police!" mindset isn't very common in the UK (so far as I know), and they've never been as lawsuit-happy as America as become, so the police don't get involved in many of the school and domestic issues that are commonly dealt with by US police. They are also better trained, as Europe in general is more willing to pay for services than we are over here.

In other words, the problems with our police are not related to them being armed (US police are fairly lightly armed overall by world standards), but are primarily economic and cultural in nature.