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[kaijyuu]

The definitions of "faith" I've always heard are basically irrational beliefs in the face of contrary evidence. Sort of a twisted form of hope; having "faith" in something means a blind adherence to it; anything stating otherwise is wrong or flawed in some way, because faith is evidence all in itself.

My old church let any congregation member stand up and talk at the podium once a month if they wanted, and one person's speech I remember was basically her stating how she overcame some criticisms of her religion by adhering to the thought cancelling mantra of "it's true." ("it" being mormonism in this case) That is what I define "faith" to be.

[Helgoland]

Oh, mormons are fucknuts

And so are actually most people, so any mormons reading this should only feel anger of a level that's as high as possible without causing them to take any form of action.

[Criptfeind]

Tortoises is just French for two turtles.

Trust me, it's true.

You're Dutch! How can we trust you in this matter?

[PanH]

Tortoises is just French for two turtles.

Trust me, it's true.

You're Dutch! How can we trust you in this matter?

You can't ! Trust me !




It's false ! Le tort tue !

[Loud Whispers]

And our 'secular' ideals are based on and often coincide with those that religion preports.

Wait what?

[Wolfy]

Ok, one second.

PROCESSING...

Alright. You make a valid point, though it's wrong as we're discussing this from a mostly atheist or deistic viewpoint.

However, there are several arguments against God being truely "all-powerful". One particularly pervasive bit of Fanon (Not sure if it's actually in the bibel, though most things from Dante's Inferno are taken to be canon) states that Satan managed to shake his throne, implying some limit to his power. If he really is all powerful, why did Satan get a opportunity to trick Eve against Gods will? And if it was Gods will that Adam and Eve partake of the Fruit, why not just tell them to do it once and then say, "k guys I'm going to plop you down on Earth for a bit it's gonna suck but you're still cool wit me"?

God is either Limited or Illogical.

Free will, he COULd force people to do what he wanted but he don't, for better or worse he allows every one to make their own mind, even Satan.
As for illogical, maybe to you, but many things seem illogical to us now but in the future will be easy.
Like at one point it was illogical to think humans would even be able to fly, or illogical to think the earth is round, now days? It's 100% logical, now keep in mind if we keep God as he is, he is
A. of a higher understanding
B. would be the nase idea of a cave man seeing us now, or us seeing someone light years ahead of us, we cant beguin to assume whats "logical" to us is always the "logical awnser" he knows more, been around longer and has higher "thought function" if he exists.

I'm not saying he is all powerful, the bible says he is, as well as MOST Christians 9I'm not aware of any big ones that claim he si not)

for example, at one point the idea of skin colour making you "better" was logical to us, now its ilogical, giving time its possible this will no longer be illogical

[pisskop]

And our 'secular' ideals are based on and often coincide with those that religion preports.

Wait what?

Pick an ideal. chances are it exists in religion or religion has a function to fufill it.  I use christianity as a based because of how widespread it is but. . .

[Loud Whispers]

And our 'secular' ideals are based on and often coincide with those that religion preports.

Wait what?

Pick an ideal. chances are it exists in religion or religion has a function to fufill it.  I use christianity as a based because of how widespread it is but. . .

Mmhmm. I could also do the same with philosophies and literature. Secular morals are about as based on religious teachings as they are based off pop songs and jokes on chocolate bar wrappers.
[And a whole lot of religious teachings happen to be very bad, or at the very least restrictive].

[Lord Shonus]

And our 'secular' ideals are based on and often coincide with those that religion preports.

Wait what?

The essence of most secular liberal philosophies I'm familiar with is that all people have rights, that we should not have to bow before the strong, and that simple survival is not a luxury. These are the exact same ideals that underlie a number of religions, most prominently Christianity. In many cases, secular and atheistic philosophers used the teachings of these faiths as a starting point, and took them further.

[pisskop]

restrictive /=/ bad.  At least to me.  But that gets off topic.  and only in some facets are they restrictive.  Such as in that they set firm rules and usually disallow followers to worship other gods.
I disagree that secular beliefs are really so far removed form religion.

[misko27]

Oh hell.
 
This is not religious thread. Is WTF thread.

[Nadaka]

Lord Shonus, those are most definitely no the ideals of Christianity.

[Mephansteras]

Prompted by a random boardgame theme thought, I looked up Zoroastrianism to learn more about it.

By one estimate, there are between 124,000 and 190,000 Zoroastrians worldwide

I...didn't realize that it had actually survived as a religion. Apparently it's been continuously practiced in Iran and India for thousands of years.

[Loud Whispers]

And our 'secular' ideals are based on and often coincide with those that religion preports.

Wait what?

The essence of most secular liberal philosophies I'm familiar with is that all people have rights, that we should not have to bow before the strong, and that simple survival is not a luxury. These are the exact same ideals that underlie a number of religions, most prominently Christianity. In many cases, secular and atheistic philosophers used the teachings of these faiths as a starting point, and took them further.

Such as kill everyone who works on the Sabbath?

[fqllve]

Lord Shonus, those are most definitely no the ideals of Christianity.

Those aren't the ideals of political Christianity (re: the papacy, the religious right), but yeah, that's basically what the Gospels are all about. I'm not really familiar enough with the rest of the New Testament to say about that, but the Gospels seem to be the moral center of the religion from an outside perspective.

Such as kill everyone who works on the Sabbath?

Which includes turning on light switches!

Man, the Old Testament is crazy.