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[Frumple]

Frumple, it's a little more complicated than that. [snip]

Nah, I'm aware of pretty much all that -- my own madre was in the sort of relationship you're in for quite a while (though, uh. Older, and perhaps not quite so physically involved.) and became somewhat familiar with the legalities involved. I've got total agreement that things would be considerably better if the legalities were more equitable -- not just for homosexual couples, but for varying stripes of heterosexuals in long-term relationships that don't wish to define them as marriage, as well.

I just don't have a very high opinion of legal marriage itself, mostly. Placing so much weight on something so... I'unno, mercantile. Seems to cheapen the supposed sentiment behind the ceremony itself, y'know? 'Bout the best way I can put it, at two AM. Wish we'd just dissolve marriage as a legal concept entirely, define everything legal by civil unions or whathaveyou and leave the personal/societal nomenclature in the hands of the people in the relationship or society.

[MaximumZero]

I would be all for that, Frumple, but we humans are a cowardly and superstitious lot.

I'd also be for making people renew their marriage licenses like driver's licenses. You know, every couple of years. If both parties don't renew, then the marriage is dissolved amicably and resources are split according to a percentage of wealth distribution in the peoples' pre-marriage state.

[SalmonGod]

I've been thinking for a long time about homeschooling my kid when he gets to middle or high school.  My education was almost completely worthless from about 8-12th grade.  I was taught so many things that were blatantly fucking false and so many habits and attitudes that hurt me later on.  Even more importantly, the social atmosphere was highly toxic and left me with a ton of issues.  It was years before I was comfortable making eye contact with people.

But if I do homeschool my kid, I don't look forward to being stereotyped in with the creationists.

[alway]

That isn't the issue; from what I've read, the issue is that the religious and creationist crowd dominated the homeschooling scene to the point where those who don't subscribe to their loony-bin beliefs have a difficult time finding good curriculum material which isn't spiked with a good ol' dose of religious fervor. Homeschooling itself typically has generally positive results from what I've read, with the exception of it being an echo-chamber for some of the wackier beliefs of the parents.

[MaximumZero]

I've been thinking for a long time about homeschooling my kid when he gets to middle or high school.  My education was almost completely worthless from about 8-12th grade.  I was taught so many things that were blatantly fucking false and so many habits and attitudes that hurt me later on.  Even more importantly, the social atmosphere was highly toxic and left me with a ton of issues.  It was years before I was comfortable making eye contact with people.

But if I do homeschool my kid, I don't look forward to being stereotyped in with the creationists.

I've also seriously considered homeschooling, despite my unabashed atheism. Should I ever take the MENSA test (and score like I'm supposed to), I'll probably offer to teach other folks' kids, too.

Edit: Added religious affiliation.

[Scelly9]

Are you sure it's a large majority? In my experience, it's a minority.


Actually, scratch that. It's mostly unschoolers around here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling_in_the_United_States#Motivations

Motivations for homeschooling
in the US in 2007[1]
Motivation   Percentage
of parents
A concern about the school environment   85%
A desire to provide religious or moral instruction   72%
A dissatisfaction with academic
instruction at other schools   68%
Child has special needs   21%
Child has a physical or mental health problem   ~ 16%
Other reasons   20%

Spoiler: Graph of top reason (click to show/hide)

So yeah; religious homeschooling is the biggest single subset of the reasons.

In particular, there are also articles like these which are prevalent: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/2010-03-08-home-school-christian_N.htm
Creationism is quite rampant in homeschooling.

Huh. What is the pie graph of? Because it doesn't work with the other data in that table.

[SalmonGod]

I've been thinking for a long time about homeschooling my kid when he gets to middle or high school.  My education was almost completely worthless from about 8-12th grade.  I was taught so many things that were blatantly fucking false and so many habits and attitudes that hurt me later on.  Even more importantly, the social atmosphere was highly toxic and left me with a ton of issues.  It was years before I was comfortable making eye contact with people.

But if I do homeschool my kid, I don't look forward to being stereotyped in with the creationists.

I've also seriously considered homeschooling, despite my unabashed atheism. Should I ever take the MENSA test (and score like I'm supposed to), I'll probably offer to teach other folks' kids, too.

Edit: Added religious affiliation.

There's a chance I'll be moving up to Ft Wayne eventually.  If we're close enough, we could collaborate.  And wrestle.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

High School is the place where you learn how to be a more independent person capable of living amongst peers without killing each other. Don't deny your kid that. There's plenty of things that will probably suck in school, but without that experience you'll be throwing them into the world unprepared.

[Frumple]

... maybe yours was. Mine mostly turned me into a largely asocial misanthrope for a few years to keep from killing someone (college made things notably better, and I imagine when I finally get together the resources to safely ditch this hellhole things will much further improve), and fairly heftily reinforced the existent paranoia growing up around violent bigots started. Socialization is important, but it's arguable that high school is a good venue for that. Largely depends on the area you're in, the child in question, and the resources you, as a parent, have access to.

There's certainly a number of high schools in North Florida there is no goddamn way you'd get me to put someone I have guardianship over in, though.

[SalmonGod]

I don't think high school is necessary for learning that.  In fact, I think just growing up watching me and my wife (people with completely opposing personalities) get along will go a long way there.  If his high school experiences ends up anything like mine, that one useful experience isn't worth all the other anti-useful experiences, or the wasted time and frustration that could be spent actually learning & developing.

[penguinofhonor]

In my experience, high school teaches you how to find the people you'll be happy with, which is probably the most important social skill since knowing how to dress yourself.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

... maybe yours was. Mine mostly turned me into a largely asocial misanthrope for a few years to keep from killing someone (college made things notably better, and I imagine when I finally get together the resources to safely ditch this hellhole things will much further improve), and fairly heftily reinforced the existent paranoia growing up around violent bigots started. Socialization is important, but it's arguable that high school is a good venue for that. Largely depends on the area you're in, the child in question, and the resources you, as a parent, have access to.

I didn't say it was going to be all good. In fact, that's pretty much impossible. The experience is what matters, and some of that experience is going to be unpleasant, but you can learn from bad experiences.

I don't think high school is necessary for learning that.

It isn't strictly necessary, but if it is not present a massive compensation is needed.

In fact, I think just growing up watching me and my wife (people with completely opposing personalities) get along will go a long way there.

SalmonGod, I am only saying this to help you and your children: If you think that just watching you and your wife is going to be sufficient to prepare your children for life in the real world, you are tragically, tragically mistaken. True social competence can never be achieved by exposure to just a few people, the human experience is quite simply too varied for that. It can't be taught and it can't be quantified, it can only be learned through first-hand activity, and a lot of it.

They will, at some point, learn everything about unguided social functionality. Your actions will determine whether that happens in a relatively controlled environment where their physical needs are still being provided by you, or when they're out trying to make enough money to live on their own in an unsympathetic world. You can screw-up badly in High School without lasting consequences. The true is not same later on.

If his high school experiences ends up anything like mine, that one useful experience isn't worth all the other anti-useful experiences, or the wasted time and frustration that could be spent actually learning & developing.

Forget about whether you actually liked it or not. Did you, at any point during school, come to understand something you did not before concerning dealing with other people? Any lesson helps, even if it is just a precursor to a useful lesson. Hell, I was an antisocial loner for almost all of high school, and that taught me more about dealing with people than being around people I actually liked ever did. In time, I became tolerant and knowledgeable to a degree I never would have imagined.

Some of the proof of that is on these very forums. I can't believe some of my oldest posts here were actually written by me. I barely even understand my own mindset from those days anymore.

[Scelly9]

High School is the place where you learn how to be a more independent person capable of living amongst peers without killing each other. Don't deny your kid that. There's plenty of things that will probably suck in school, but without that experience you'll be throwing them into the world unprepared.

Heh. There's a highschool gun scare about once a month down here. It more teaches you to live in prison, the level of "security" they have.

[Frumple]

Ah, MSH, let me put it in clearer terms. High School did more damage to me than it did benefit, on pretty much every level. Academically, I got worse. Socially, I got worse. Psychologically, I got worse. The only social lesson I had reinforced by high school was avoidance, and that did nothing beneficial. Pretty much every gain I've had related to what you're talking about either occurred outside of high school entirely, outside of normal classes, or after I got out -- as near as I can tell, I'd probably be notably more psychologically stable and socially able if I had avoided more of the experience. I've met a few people over the years that were literally traumatized by their experience during that period of their life (I roomed with a fellow that would wake up screaming about a fifth of the times he slept, due to certain events.).

I'd not call the high school experience a necessarily beneficial (even if unpleasant) one. It depends on a lot of variables, and I've so far seen pretty strong indication there's other venues to exploit for exposing children to the potentially beneficial aspects of that sort of education and socialization.

E: Well, being fair, it did lay the foundations for later realizing that a poorly designed and half-implemented creche system is a terribly ineffective way to manage anything useful, and that the education system in my state is pretty bloody terrible, but I'm pretty sure that's not what you're getting at

[SalmonGod]

I didn't mean to indicate that I think socialization with immediate family is sufficient.  That comment was half-joking and half-making the point that a good example is worth more than 100 bad examples.  Being treated like shit by an entire community did not teach me how to get along with them.  All it taught me was to be cynical and how to be invisible in groups, which has its own advantages... but still didn't teach me proper socialization.  I didn't learn that until after I was out of high school, and a large part of that was overcoming the damages that had been inflicted on me.  I still tend to stare at my feet when walking in public, and my neck is now permanently slouched over to the point that I literally cannot hold my head up as straight as most people.  Just because the main social skill I learned was to completely avoid engaging people, even passively.

I'll take part of that back... I did hang out with people from around the world daily on the internet beginning at age 13, and I learned more social skills there than I did at school.

I do acknowledge that my experience was worse than most people's.  Most find their small clique of at least 3 or 4 people that they're really good friends with and fuck everyone else.  I had zero real friends from the ages of 8-16.  People who only picked on me if someone else initiated it first are what I considered friends.  This is why I'm not determined to homeschool my kid.  It's just something I've strongly considered.  If I did, I would be sure to find other socialization scenes for him.  There are support groups for that kind of thing, and I'd do my best to get him involved in some sports or other organized group activities.  Most importantly, I wouldn't just let him sit around at home all the time in his comfort zone.  I know that's important.

In my experience, high school teaches you how to find the people you'll be happy with, which is probably the most important social skill since knowing how to dress yourself.

This one I can actually agree with, and I can see how missing high school can delay this.

Edit:  I will give South Putnam HS credit for one thing.  It gave me some unique political/sociological perspective.  I began seriously questioning the value and nature of the social structures around me and all the mechanisms behind people treating me and each other the way they did.  When I started getting into my late teens/early twenties and started being exposed to and reading about actual political philosophies and taking philosophy courses in school, I found that I had already picked apart many of the principles they taught years before on my own.