Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Graknorke]

And it's made the game better at the things it was meant to do. It could be argued it's the single biggest step in that direction that will ever be made, actually. Now it's possible for things that happen in one for to actually affect another.

[Orange Wizard]

And it's made the game better at the things it was meant to do. It could be argued it's the single biggest step in that direction that will ever be made, actually. Now it's possible for things that happen in one for to actually affect another.

It's the entire point of the game, really.

But it has affected sieges in a meaningful fashion.

It's funny because the current state of sieges are one of the bigger arguments against world activation.

[Sergarr]

Yeah, people seem to like the "managed gameplay" that existed in DF before better than the "semi-realistic simulation" that is in place now, in general. Not that they actually say it, of course; on words, they all would like "more realism", but in reality, what they want is not that.

It's the same with "procedural generation" - people imagine that, because it can generate a lot of things, everything it generates will be unique and cool and unusual "subverting cliches" and so on, essentially playing a 100500x better version of the game in your head, with all the boring crap cut out, because who wants to imagine boring crap?

[Trapezohedron]

oh my god almost all of my problems with the DF community come from other people not getting into the game specifically because I liked the long-term goals

but... now that i think of it, it is pretty goddamn annoying when people run into someone else's hobby project and say "YOU'RE DOING THIS WRONG". Like, yeah, it's fine when it's basic usability, but there's a lot of people saying things like "the world activation didn't add anything".

Are we talking about that thread in DFGD?

[Putnam]

Wow I'm annoyed at people lately... but then, when people with undertale avatars commenting on undertale videos wish others harm, i just have to think "do you have any capacity to learn or any self awareness at all"

Actually all things considered these are probably literally children, who tend to be edgy as hell anyway and also happen to have near-zero slf awareness, so maybe i shouldn't be getting so mad.

oh my god almost all of my problems with the DF community come from other people not getting into the game specifically because I liked the long-term goals

but... now that i think of it, it is pretty goddamn annoying when people run into someone else's hobby project and say "YOU'RE DOING THIS WRONG". Like, yeah, it's fine when it's basic usability, but there's a lot of people saying things like "the world activation didn't add anything".

Are we talking about that thread in DFGD?

No way I would post here about a single thread, that'd be petty and annoying. It's at least two, I'm not keepibg close track.

[Trapezohedron]

Well you know how every big fandom tends to get shitty runoff.

There's probably more people treating the game as a game with a story and not as an experience, with a message made by the author to stop discriminating so much at other people or something.

Not everyone can understand that. Or have time to understand that, Or care to understand that, only wanting their asriel 34s because it gives them big moolahs if they draw the art themselves and get a lot of fame to elevate their e-reputation higher.

[penguinofhonor]

I agree with you that people aren't appreciating these features enough. But they're fine to criticize Toady's hobby project, and he's fine to take or leave that criticism since he doesn't want their money. Yes, the feature might add to the rich fantasy world, but the world exists as something for players to interact with. If players aren't interacting with a certain feature as much as he expects, then he's going to want to know. He's not going to change his vision for the game because of this, but knowing their perspective will let him make better decisions.

To give an example, I believe Toady has said the weather system is too complicated, and that he probably could have used something simpler for about the same result. Perhaps if some people pointed out how little they expected weather to affect gameplay, he would have realized this before the weather system was finished and integrated into the game. Then he could have spent his time and energy elsewhere. This is a decision he has made on his personal project that he seems to think was incorrect - but I know for sure that the most dedicated DF fans would have supported it because it's a new level of simulation.

I'm not saying world activation is the same situation - obviously this is a lot more important to DF than the weather system. But there's a grain of truth in most criticism. Even if Toady doesn't change the game like these people expect him to, player reactions will help him set his priorities. Maybe looking at the DFGD threads will prompt him to integrate the active world with Fortress Mode more, who knows? But at worst Toady can just ignore them, so I'm glad they're giving feedback.

[Putnam]

It's mostly an issue of people thinking they're getting into the world's most complicated dungeon keeper clone instead of... Dwarf Fortress. Criticism's fine as long as it's actually directed correctly instead of being based on the fundamentally incorrect assumptions implied by the idea that the activated world isn't worth it., which is what I meant in the first place (that peole trying to criticise DF for being DF instead of Gnomoria or whatever is sorta dumb when a huge corpus of info is available on what DF aims to be)

[penguinofhonor]

Ah, that makes sense. At that point you're getting near uninformed criticism territory, which is much less useful.

[TempAcc]

Yea, the whole vibe I got from that discussion is that some people clearly don't actualy understand what DF aims to eventualy become, which is a tolkien-ish fantasy story generator/simulator thing with adventurer mode being just as important as fortress mode, and not what the many DF-eske clones out there do (IE become a slightly more complex/complete dungeon keeper clone crossed with minecraft).

[Baffler]

Yeah, people seem to like the "managed gameplay" that existed in DF before better than the "semi-realistic simulation" that is in place now, in general. Not that they actually say it, of course; on words, they all would like "more realism", but in reality, what they want is not that.

It's the same with "procedural generation" - people imagine that, because it can generate a lot of things, everything it generates will be unique and cool and unusual "subverting cliches" and so on, essentially playing a 100500x better version of the game in your head, with all the boring crap cut out, because who wants to imagine boring crap?

I think they both have their place. I play about as much of 34.11 as I do of the newest version. As far as the progression of things goes and what you need to care about (beyond very basic things like food and booze, though even booze isn't quite as necessary as it once was what with dwarves and other races coming in and drinking water by choice every so often to avoid alcohol poisoning) they're very nearly different games. I have the same concerns about random generation though. I feel like gray goo is going to be a big problem in early iterations of the game that introduce it.

[pisskop]

I havent played since the new version came out.

tbqh I was sad to hear about taverns and libraries instead of monster/worldgen things.  Theres more lore or w.e., but I miss the combat and mechanicry, not the lore.

I dont even know how to start to learn about the changes, and Im probs gonna make my first new fort without a library or anything weird.

[chaotic skies]

I haven't really touched libraries. I started the Strip, and that's a thing about taverns/libraries/temples, but I've still barely touched them

[NJW2000]

I'm assuming that if you put enough of the right items and labours in one location, it all just happens naturally.

[TempAcc]

You can play a fort without ever touching them, but its a pretty significant feature that opens a whole new layer of complexity to your fort, and most importantly, another way to get people into your fort that aren't semi-useless dwarves with random irrelevant skills :v