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[Bohandas]

It's proven completely impossible to change mental gender

What about eliminating it?

And to clarify, I mean like in everyone. Mental gender is nothing but physical sex's grotesque funhouse-mirror reflection.

[flabort]

I want to say something about how I hope I would react to a coming-out, but I don't want to sound like a pretentious toleranprogresiver-than-you type.  Bleh.

@flabort:Er, not being trans?
Or what O.Wilde said.
Also, if it's Minecraft, the thing you're thinking of is Vis.

@also flabort:Yes, some people get annoyed at that.  I find it superfluous but fair enough.  If one side gets a label, it's only fair that the other side gets one slapped on.

AAARGH STOP NINJAING ME

I was thinking of Centi-Vis, actually. Which I've seen shortened to Cis, especially in the ingame documentation provided by addons.
But OK, I guess "Fair is fair", far as labels go. Of course, we don't have a label for "Not a Seamstress", "Not a short-order cook", "not a prostitute", "not an author", or "Not a musician", and those are all life choices (usually; exceptions exist in 3 and 5) like being Trans is. I mean, some people are "compelled" to be trans by what they believe is their biology, which I won't argue with, but I still choose to see it as a life choice.

Well, 'not trans' is sorta clunky, and you can't very well say 'normal'.

No, I agree with not saying normal. I don't agree with not trans being clunky; it's two syllables, for crying out loud! "Human" and "Gamer" are also both two syllables, and there are many other labels in common use that are even more syllables. "Homophobic" for one (and many other "-phobic" ones), and "Valedictorian".

Yeah being squicked by the fact you just stuck your dick inside an inverted penis is totally the sign of a bad person./s

I don't see how that's any more disgusting than sticking it in a vagina. Same risk of getting a disease either way, if you don't use protection. But, hey, if she hasn't had genital reassignment surgery, you won't be doing that anyways.

But think about this a minute: Trans-women don't have periods, and they can't get pregnant and they have a prostate. How is that not superior?

(There are always kids who need adopting if you want kids.)

Yup, if you're sticking your dick anywhere it's gross to me; and I have one! I don't believe in it going in mouths, asses, inverted penii, or anywhere unless you're SPECIFICALLY trying for kids; which isn't transphobic, or homophobic, it's... what's the word for "Sex for pleasure"? Well, "Sex for pleasure"-phobic is what it is. I hope that doesn't make me any enemies, but generally I just ignore the whole "Sex for pleasure" thing rather than fighting against it; do what you will with other people, I'm just keeping out of it and out of you, thank you; nothing against you, I'd just rather not do it until I'm good and well ready for the consequences.

Of course, that means I get lumped in there with the maniacs who put holes in condoms on purpose, but so be it.

[Bohandas]

Well, if the mind and body don't match, which do you change?

All views must be altered to fit the facts. If the preception does not match the reality than the preception is objectively incorrect and must be changed.

[Rolan7]

I find vaginas gross, personally, glad I don't have one and am barely attracted to most people that have them.

..........As if being trans is some sort of negative disorder?

Of course it's a negative disorder!  Is body dismorphia supposed to be a good thing somehow?  It's not wrong that they're the person they are, but it sure sucks that they're stuck in a wrong body.

That's why so many try to fix said body, or maybe painstakingly learn to manage around it.

[ArKFallen]

It's proven completely impossible to change mental gender

What about eliminating it?

Humans are pattern recognizers and much of gender is a result of behavioral trends. Mental gender is hypothesized to be linked to hormones in the womb being weird resulting in physical development not matching the brain development (like androgen sensitivity though that is more rare and both sentences should be taken on their own). You can't stop the pattern finder and you would need some weird/serious education program to curtail it in issues like this, elsewise such a program could remove racism but I don't think that is seriously possible.

[Bohandas]

As for aesthetics, to my understanding it's more... more like those people who don't feel as if their limbs are real, or that their limbs don't belong to them. It's just a wrongness about their body that itches at their mind, always lurking, and until it's fixed, they won't really be happy.

Follow-up question. If somebody doesn't think their arm is real or wants to get rid of it, should we pretend that it's not there?

[Kot]

As for aesthetics, to my understanding it's more... more like those people who don't feel as if their limbs are real, or that their limbs don't belong to them. It's just a wrongness about their body that itches at their mind, always lurking, and until it's fixed, they won't really be happy.

Follow-up question. If somebody doesn't think their arm is real or wants to get rid of it, should we pretend that it's not there?

People who want to chop their hands off usually end up in psychiatric hospital or something so I guess you shouldn't, and any reasoning that it's their own decision seems... unreasonable. I might be way too old-fashioned.

[Descan]

I'm really tired of trying to talk to you, Boh, because you never listen to anyone, and always word things in a very aggressive manner, implying that anyone who disagrees with you is stupid. So I'm done here.

[Shadowlord]

I want to say something about how I hope I would react to a coming-out, but I don't want to sound like a pretentious toleranprogresiver-than-you type.  Bleh.

@flabort:Er, not being trans?
Or what O.Wilde said.
Also, if it's Minecraft, the thing you're thinking of is Vis.

@also flabort:Yes, some people get annoyed at that.  I find it superfluous but fair enough.  If one side gets a label, it's only fair that the other side gets one slapped on.

AAARGH STOP NINJAING ME

I was thinking of Centi-Vis, actually. Which I've seen shortened to Cis, especially in the ingame documentation provided by addons.
But OK, I guess "Fair is fair", far as labels go. Of course, we don't have a label for "Not a Seamstress", "Not a short-order cook", "not a prostitute", "not an author", or "Not a musician", and those are all life choices (usually; exceptions exist in 3 and 5) like being Trans is. I mean, some people are "compelled" to be trans by what they believe is their biology, which I won't argue with, but I still choose to see it as a life choice.

A life choice? The choices are transitioning, or becoming more and more depressed and eventually suicidal. Which would you choose?

Yeah being squicked by the fact you just stuck your dick inside an inverted penis is totally the sign of a bad person./s

I don't see how that's any more disgusting than sticking it in a vagina. Same risk of getting a disease either way, if you don't use protection. But, hey, if she hasn't had genital reassignment surgery, you won't be doing that anyways.

But think about this a minute: Trans-women don't have periods, and they can't get pregnant and they have a prostate. How is that not superior?

(There are always kids who need adopting if you want kids.)

Yup, if you're sticking your dick anywhere it's gross to me; and I have one! I don't believe in it going in mouths, asses, inverted penii, or anywhere unless you're SPECIFICALLY trying for kids; which isn't transphobic, or homophobic, it's... what's the word for "Sex for pleasure"? Well, "Sex for pleasure"-phobic is what it is. I hope that doesn't make me any enemies, but generally I just ignore the whole "Sex for pleasure" thing rather than fighting against it; do what you will with other people, I'm just keeping out of it and out of you, thank you; nothing against you, I'd just rather not do it until I'm good and well ready for the consequences.

Of course, that means I get lumped in there with the maniacs who put holes in condoms on purpose, but so be it.

You can get over that, if you want to - I know that's a changeable aspect of the mind because I used to have that same phobia. (Same thing for being squicked out by women with dicks.)

[Bohandas]

(Same thing for being squicked out by women with dicks.)

How exactly do you define a woman? That's what I don't get.

My definition is a human that produces, or produced, egg cells; nothing more, nothing less. Femininity, dresses, makeup, demeanor, secondary sex characteristics (and in fact even non-gonadal primary sexual characteristics), and absolutely anything mental and cultural are both immaterial and unconnected. A child born with ovaries but without a head or brain who is kept alive on life support until she reaches physical adulthood is a woman, but a child born with a head but no ovaries is not (unless ovaries are somehow created for them; but that lies beyond the power of modern medicine).

It should be mentioned that this construction does technically allow for women with dicks; not in the sense you mean though, but rather as a result of intersexual conditions.

EDIT:
In the interests of clarity and not leaving myself open to the combination strawman/ad hominem argument that people would likely use against me without this note I should point out that exactly the same thing goes for men and testes; the no brain example is not meant to be a sexist thing.

[ArKFallen]

curious how you'd define a man then. If it deals particularly with sperm production how do you interpret intersex?

[Bohandas]

curious how you'd define a man then. If it deals particularly with sperm production how do you interpret intersex?

Find-and-replace "ovaries" with "testes", "eggs" with "sperm" and "women" with "men". Intersex depends on which if any is functional and if it's both than they're both.

[Putnam]

I just realized something.

I have been part of the Homestuck and Dwarf Fortress fandoms. I am a consistent connoisseur of the confusing, an expert on works that people tend to miss things about or just make crap up because they misremembered something.

But nothing has compared to Undertale in terms of the sheer amounts of misinterpretation, misunderstanding and misinformation I've seen. I have spent most of my time in that fandom picking nits out of people's conceptions of the game.

What about Undertale makes it like that? Is it just that it's more popular than Homestuck and Dwarf Fortress combined and happens to have certain parts of the game be specifically designed to make people not want to do them? (and it's usually that part of the game, huh).

[Orange Wizard]

Re: sex/gender/etc: It's a semantics clusterfuck, ego everyone arguing about it is wrong

...

But nothing has compared to Undertale in terms of the sheer amounts of misinterpretation, misunderstanding and misinformation I've seen. I have spent most of my time in that fandom picking nits out of people's conceptions of the game.

Yeah but that's mostly because it's just a hodgepodge of memes and 90s-era graphics

[Putnam]

But nothing has compared to Undertale in terms of the sheer amounts of misinterpretation, misunderstanding and misinformation I've seen. I have spent most of my time in that fandom picking nits out of people's conceptions of the game.

Yeah but that's mostly because it's just a hodgepodge of memes and 90s-era graphics

1. >homestuck
2. >dwarf fortress
3. undertale isn't even a tenth as memey as people say it is
4. this bears repeating, actually, i talk about dwarf fortress and homestuck then you say undertale's worse for... archaic graphics and memes?