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[Flying Dice]

I dug this up less than a week ago. This. This is why you ban handguns.

I was going to argue that this is because of how common pistol ownership is, but I looked it up and apparently the majority of the guns in America *aren't* handguns.  So yeah, that's interesting.

I'd postulate that it's down to a range of reasons which generally fall under a central principle: compared to other firearms, handguns are much more useful to criminals. They're easy to conceal, easy to use, easy to steal, and easy to dispose of. This isn't exactly unknown, either; after JFK was assassinated, a number of laws were passed restricting firearm ownership. Notably, despite the fact that JFK was killed with a mail-order rifle from the NRA, the first set of restrictions (in June of '68) targeted handguns specifically, while the more general Gun Control Act wasn't signed until October of '68.

In terms of personal opinion, I'd argue that in situations where a shotgun or rifle isn't an effective self-defense weapon you're probably usually better off with MA training since there's no chance of someone wrestling your training away from you in a struggle. Unless you live in a shithole where most robbers and muggers carry firearms already, which usually isn't the case. Escalating the situation is rarely a good thing, and frankly it's a little disgusting when people cheerlead for Stand Yer Ground, Bubba laws because they get all hot and bothered at the thought of getting to whip it out and kill a burglar when he runs away.

[Neonivek]

Neonviek: Right, sorry, but my point still stands, you should be paralysed by the electricity, you shouldn't be able to just shrug it off.

Well no, it doesn't do that either. Basically it overstimulates the muscles causing contractions and spasms weakening them and is often painful enough to stop someone in their tracks... Often... and even then the "stopping someone in their tracks" usually only works as long as the electricity is active for, most people can get up immediately after being tasered to the ground.

Drunkards are notoriously resistant to tasers.

[Execute/Dumbo.exe]

Neonviek: Right, sorry, but my point still stands, you should be paralysed by the electricity, you shouldn't be able to just shrug it off.

Well no, it doesn't do that either. Basically it overstimulates the muscles causing contractions and spasms weakening them and is often painful enough to stop someone in their tracks... Often... and even then the "stopping someone in their tracks" usually only works as long as the electricity is active for, most people can get up immediately after being tasered to the ground.

Drunkards are notoriously resistant to tasers.

Huh, the more you know.
I guess. I thought otherwise when I watched that video of a heavily muscled guy (and I mean heavily, you could grate cheese on his abs) getting tazed, and he just fell.

[LordSlowpoke]

if you don't kill muggers, they'll live to mug another day

remove mugger 2012

[IcyTea31]

Actually, on the note of unarmed fighting, what kinda fighting style is best against one on one fights? I mean, I'm learning Jiu-Jitsu, which is mostly Counter and Ground based fighting, but I don't know much about other styles.

Don't take any martial art at face value. They're mostly useful against combatants with similar styles and ideas of honour. It's best to take any 'cheap' shot you can get to one of the numerous weakspots of the human body, which most martial arts avoid doing. Almost any unarmed style works, as long as one isn't afraid to actually hurt the opponent and doesn't hesitate. The problem is, the kind of people who become criminals are generally just that, while the average civilian isn't. Criminals also generally have more combat experience.

With your Jiu-Jitsu, you should ground your assailant, stand up, stomp on their knee or gut so they won't get up too soon, and just run away. Or skip the first 3 steps and just run away.

To put it as simple as possible: don't hesitate to hurt your opponent, but only do it so you can get away from them.

[Emma]

That's weird. My friend who learn martial arts have no qualms about using it on me.

[Xantalos]

Actually, on the note of unarmed fighting, what kinda fighting style is best against one on one fights? I mean, I'm learning Jiu-Jitsu, which is mostly Counter and Ground based fighting, but I don't know much about other styles.

Hit-in-vulnerable-spot-really-hard-and-run-away-fu.

What I've been told is that in a real fight you want to end it as quickly as possible, because prolonging it means the other guy's gonna get a lucky shot in eventually. So hit whatever vulnerable part they have - go for cheap shots - once or maybe twice just to make sure they stay down, then get the fuck out.

[Loud Whispers]

If you're concerned about muggers, learn some effective unarmed self-defence. A gun is overkill, as the goal is to get away from the mugger, not necessarily kill them. Kicking them in the nards or punching them in the gut, then running as fast as one can is much more effective and less likely to result in tragedy.

Exactly my point.

The goal is not to run away it is not to get hurt, fight or flight, not just flight; we all have a duty to be civil to our peers and I'd say mugging them is a clear violation. Not everyone can learn martial arts, not everyone can even run away. Guns are equalizers; you don't have to be strong, you don't have to be skilled, you just need a gun. Does everyone else remember that video that went viral, when some city kid and his wife rolled through the countryside in some fancy car? Four incredibly massive country bumpkins with baseball bats and hammers decide that it'd be a great idea to fuck up his car and fuck him up for reasons which probably made sense to them. And then the city kid pulls out a shotgun, takes their keys, throws it down the drain and drives off with their camera without a shot fired. It seems bizarre that people's focus in the gun debate is on the welfare of attackers, and not somewhere where it really hits like suicide. You know, imagine if you told a woman that she shouldn't fight off a violent rapist because that is an escalation of conflict and could result in her getting killed. That's abhorrent. Nah, she's perfectly within her rights to protect herself otherwise you're living in some fucked up upside down world where it is a greater crime to fight back than to fight.

[BFEL]

Besides, I don't get the whole 'killing someone for mugging you' thing. Most crimes aren't exactly because they're horrible people who are just doing this for kicks.

Death is a measurable consequence of your actions.
While most criminals aren't horrible people doing it for kicks, they ARE taking a course of action that has some rather obvious risks.

Similarly to how police officers know they might get shot on the job, any reasonable person (i.e. those not doing it to be horrible or because of insanity) should realize "hey this person might take exception to me taking their stuff, and shoot me" so I personally think undertaking that action is in effect an acceptance of those risks.

While this doesn't necessarily excuse people shooting those running away from them or other such iffiness, its my two moral cents on why this is a thing.

[Frumple]

Not gonna lie, I feel like if I got mugged I'd just empty my wallet and be like "Dude whatever you need this for just ask politely next time' or some shit 'cause I am a bitch.

For what it's worth, last time I checked the numbers the first part of that is pretty much the choice that is statistically least likely to get you killed or injured. Second least likely would be running the hell away. Anything that involves escalation starts increasing the chance you don't walk away. Trying to pull a gun on a mugger is one of the faster ways to get stabbed, beaten, and/or shot, insofar as reality goes. Everything from the physics to the psychology involved pretty massively supports the offensive/initiating side of the interaction in question

[SirQuiamus]

If you get jumped by a bunch of muggers and you try to pull a gun on them, the probable result is that they'll end up making off with your wallet and your gun. That's how the black market maintains its supply of illegal weapons.

[Lord Shonus]

Not gonna lie, I feel like if I got mugged I'd just empty my wallet and be like "Dude whatever you need this for just ask politely next time' or some shit 'cause I am a bitch.

For what it's worth, last time I checked the numbers the first part of that is pretty much the choice that is statistically least likely to get you killed or injured. Second least likely would be running the hell away. Anything that involves escalation starts increasing the chance you don't walk away. Trying to pull a gun on a mugger is one of the faster ways to get stabbed, beaten, and/or shot, insofar as reality goes. Everything from the physics to the psychology involved pretty massively supports the offensive/initiating side of the interaction in question

Around here, "eliminate all witnesses" has become fairly common for occupied home invasions, and far from rare in other crimes, either because the criminals think that this will make them harder to catch (seems to be a safe bet, a large percentage of our unsolved homicides in the last few years are of this type) or because most such crimes are committed by druggies in withdrawal and a common side effect of such is extreme paranoia.

If you're in good enough shape to run away, that can work, but if you're asthmatic, lame, or simply getting on in years you have no real chance of escaping the guy crawling in your window with a crowbar, and trying to whip out some kind of martial art will get you killed. So will "a single-shot small caliber gun" - such a weapon can kill, but almost never does so quickly, and it does you no good if the guy bleeds out after he's already beaten you to death.

In any self defense scenario, your only goal is "not dying", and the best weapon to do that is either an AR-type rifle (extremely controllable with very good single shot stopping power) or a shotgun (if you're strong enough to handle a shotgun with a proper defensive round - a lot of people, especially the elderly or small-framed people simply can't), but neither is particularly easy or safe to keep ready in the house due to bulk, while a handgun can very easily be kept in a nightstand drawer overnight (any sane person would lock it up the rest of the time unless carrying) with ammunition ready (it takes so little time to load an autopistol that keeping it loaded is an unnecessary risk), even a child (let alone a fully grown adult) can handle the recoil of any practical caliber, and anything larger than a .22 will do the job if you simply don't stop shooting until the attacker stops moving, then call an ambulance.

As for the police, it is a thirty to forty minute wait in my part of town from the time a call is made until they show up, tripled if the call was placed by a burglar alarm (the only practical purpose of which nowadays is to scare off people that don't know that).

[Tack]

Started playing the Witcher.
Come back and it's 10 pages later.

Wow. That can't be... Oh. It's been a week.

[Loud Whispers]

If you get jumped by a bunch of muggers and you try to pull a gun on them, the probable result is that they'll end up making off with your wallet and your gun. That's how the black market maintains its supply of illegal weapons.

Only if you let them, if you have the gun you are clearly the one in control. It takes the time to raise your arm, not 10 minutes. That's a hell of a lot faster than the time it takes to do fancy martial arts or run away, and you end up leaving with your wallet.

Not gonna lie, I feel like if I got mugged I'd just empty my wallet and be like "Dude whatever you need this for just ask politely next time' or some shit 'cause I am a bitch.

For what it's worth, last time I checked the numbers the first part of that is pretty much the choice that is statistically least likely to get you killed or injured. Second least likely would be running the hell away. Anything that involves escalation starts increasing the chance you don't walk away. Trying to pull a gun on a mugger is one of the faster ways to get stabbed, beaten, and/or shot, insofar as reality goes. Everything from the physics to the psychology involved pretty massively supports the offensive/initiating side of the interaction in question

Used to be that if you did the former and couldn't do the latter around my area that's how you ended up walking down the street naked and bruised. You're trusting in the empathy of someone who just attacked you.
Needless to say I find this naive at best and suicidal at worst.

[TheBiggerFish]

I have to wonder how bad LW's area actually is now...