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Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 14838065 times)

Flying Dice

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #68265 on: January 23, 2015, 08:39:30 pm »

Yes, I'd not hesitate to assert that ritualistic murder is objectively wrong -- I don't subscribe to the central argument of cultural relativism, and think that killing a person without meaningful justification (that is to say, not in legitimate self-defense &c.) is not acceptable.

Thing is though, ritual murder usually has a built in cultural reason behind it. To make an extreme example, imagine an isolated group of people which uniformly believes that a human sacrifice on the winter solstice is required to bring summer again. In this society it would be immoral not to perform the sacrifice, because everyone would starve and die otherwise. My point is that "meaningful justification" is itself essentially determined by culture. Yours simply happens to have different ideas than theirs on what meaningful justification means.

This is why I personally hold ALL cultures in contempt - even my own, just in case.

That's not an unhealthy view to have. That aside:

Yes, I'd not hesitate to assert that ritualistic murder is objectively wrong -- I don't subscribe to the central argument of cultural relativism, and think that killing a person without meaningful justification (that is to say, not in legitimate self-defense &c.) is not acceptable.

Thing is though, ritual murder usually has a built in cultural reason behind it. To make an extreme example, imagine an isolated group of people which uniformly believes that a human sacrifice on the winter solstice is required to bring summer again. In this society it would be immoral not to perform the sacrifice, because everyone would starve and die otherwise. My point is that "meaningful justification" is itself essentially determined by culture. Yours simply happens to have different ideas than theirs on what meaningful justification means.
Quote from: Flying Dice
Yes, I'd not hesitate to assert that ritualistic murder is objectively wrong

Except 'wrong' (in this sense) is something subjective by nature.
I'm not supporting ritualistic murder and I also think it's wrong, but  please don't bring objectivity into somewhere where it has no place.

1+1=3 is objectively 'wrong'  (incorrect is a better word, though), 'X action, x thoughts, x feelings, x things' are not.

I actually agree with you otherwise (for the most part). It's just the misuse of 'objectively' that I dislike.
I mean, I could say that ritual murder is objectively right. Doesn't actually make it anything objective, it's just a misuse of words and me trying to present my opinion as undeniable fact, and I really dislike it when people do that. Probably due to interacting with several religious nutcases before...

That's the issue with cultural relativism. It was spawned with the best of intentions (namely, avoiding the issues traditionally associated with Western Europeans interacting with other cultures), but was put together incredibly poorly. It's ethics' best example of lack of forethought, as it can be used to justify pretty much any atrocity which could be argued to be an element of a culture.

Let's have some examples: To Nazi Germany (pardon the semi-Godwin, but it's one of the best ways to make this point), executing undesirables was perfectly acceptable from a moral and ethical standpoint -- they were polluting the blood of ethnic Germans, taking resources and living space which could be used to better German lives, and had betrayed Germany at the end of the First World War. You can substitute the Cultural Revolution, the Soviet purges, Pol Pot's genocide, &c. as you please.

To the U.S. after 9/11, torture of suspected terrorists was ethically and morally acceptable; they had attacked the U.S., they were foreign combatants, and torture was the best way to extract information which could prevent future attacks.

Let's go back to WWII for a moment. Just about every major power engaged in bombing campaigns against civilian targets, typically guided by the belief that breaking civilian morale would produce a victory. Likewise, when the Wehrmacht advanced into Russia, its soldiers raped millions of women and girls. But it was all right, because they were subhuman by the cultural norms of the Third Reich. When the Red Army was rolling through eastern Germany, it was likewise ethically acceptable for them to do the same; after all, the Germans needed to feel the same pain and loss.

I could go on listing historical examples, but let's hit closer to home. If I'd been born in the late nineteenth century, it would not only have been ethically acceptable by the standards of the time but also looked upon favorably for me to beat my children. Likewise, if my wife wished to express political views, take up work outside the home, or engage in intellectual activity, I would have been praised by many of my peers for stifling that and condemned if I did not.

If I were born sixty years ago, the society in which I live would have praised me for vocally expressing racist and homophobic sentiment.

Et-fuckin'-cetera.


Few things irk me more than people perpetuating this bullshit masquerading as accepting and multicultural thought. Moreover, what you're shilling is a misrepresentation of what the idea actually was.

So here. If you're lazy, just read this: It originated with Herodotus' observation that people will always, when given a choice, prefer the beliefs of their own society, which are explicitly described as religious practices. Cultural relativists combined this with Kant's argument that we are incapable of directly observing the world, as everything we perceive is viewed through the filter of our mind.

There are two arguments there.

1. People tend to prefer their own religious practices regarding treatment of the dead &c.

2. Humans cannot perceive the world without the bias of their minds.

What you're trying to turn it into is:

1. You can't judge the actions of anyone not of your own culture and time because their culture had different ethical standards.

I reiterate. Bullshit. When you're supporting an ethical worldview which excuses genocide, mass rape, torture, and any other horrible thing you can think of, you might want to reconsider your stance.
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Moghjubar

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #68266 on: January 23, 2015, 08:50:15 pm »

It's like the clickbait ads aren't even trying.

Take a good, good look at it.

Its like they do not carrot all anymore.
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TD1

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #68267 on: January 23, 2015, 08:59:47 pm »

I reiterate. Bullshit. When you're supporting an ethical worldview which excuses genocide, mass rape, torture, and any other horrible thing you can think of, you might want to reconsider your stance.

Not excuse, nor even justify. Just explain.

All those examples you gave had good justification for those people, but to us are morally abhorrent. Ritual sacrifice, we know is wrong because it gains nothing and costs lives, but the people then thought otherwise.

Whilst holding that all cultural perception is subjective, you may also hold on to your own personal belief that there are some things that, whilst not actually absolute, should be. Murder is an example.
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Bohandas

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #68268 on: January 23, 2015, 09:02:00 pm »

Let's go back to WWII for a moment. Just about every major power engaged in bombing campaigns against civilian targets, typically guided by the belief that breaking civilian morale would produce a victory.

Let's have some examples: To Nazi Germany (pardon the semi-Godwin, but it's one of the best ways to make this point), executing undesirables was perfectly acceptable from a moral and ethical standpoint -- they were polluting the blood of ethnic Germans, taking resources and living space which could be used to better German lives, and had betrayed Germany at the end of the First World War. You can substitute the Cultural Revolution, the Soviet purges, Pol Pot's genocide, &c. as you please

...

Likewise, when the Wehrmacht advanced into Russia, its soldiers raped millions of women and girls. But it was all right, because they were subhuman by the cultural norms of the Third Reich. When the Red Army was rolling through eastern Germany, it was likewise ethically acceptable for them to do the same; after all, the Germans needed to feel the same pain and loss.

I'd say that the bottom two thing justify the top one, if we take them as truly representative of the culture and not just of what the leaders were doing. The Soviet and Nazi armies acting effectively (yet unintentionally) as reciprocal agents of karma; both cultures deserved to be destroyed. If for no reason than for violating the other. It all renormalizes.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 09:04:31 pm by Bohandas »
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Wolfkit

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #68269 on: January 23, 2015, 09:11:03 pm »

I fully admit to having no real clue how the complaint system works, but I'm imagining some of those clients in an infinite loop of:
'I lost the court case, the case that I made unwinnable due to my own stupid actions! It must be my lawyer's fault because I am infallible and the center of the universe! I'm going to hire a new lawyer to sue my old lawyer!'
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Flying Dice

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #68270 on: January 23, 2015, 09:17:01 pm »

I reiterate. Bullshit. When you're supporting an ethical worldview which excuses genocide, mass rape, torture, and any other horrible thing you can think of, you might want to reconsider your stance.

Not excuse, nor even justify. Just explain.

All those examples you gave had good justification for those people, but to us are morally abhorrent. Ritual sacrifice, we know is wrong because it gains nothing and costs lives, but the people then thought otherwise.

Whilst holding that all cultural perception is subjective, you may also hold on to your own personal belief that there are some things that, whilst not actually absolute, should be. Murder is an example.

That's the thing. Explaining why? Fine and dandy. That's not what's being done here, though, people are legitimately arguing "It was acceptable in their culture, so you can't say that it's wrong." It's put forward as a question of ethics, not of history.

-snip-

I'd say that the bottom two thing justify the top one, if we take them as truly representative of the culture and not just of what the leaders were doing. The Soviet and Nazi armies acting effectively (yet unintentionally) as reciprocal agents of karma; both cultures deserved to be destroyed. If for no reason than for violating the other. It all renormalizes.
That's perfectly acceptable for me. Your argument there isn't based on "their culture thought that it was right, ergo it was right."

Mind, I'd disagree with the particulars -- I don't think that millions of people being murdered and raped is ever right, regardless of who they are, but that's because my worldview includes a fundamental placement of value on the well-being of all persons, and participation in a vile society does not merit the same treatment as vile personal action, given the degree of separation. The culture being destroyed, yes. The people who composed it, no. If I kill someone for no reason, that is worse than if I lived in a state which killed someone for no reason and I did not protest it, which is worse than if I lived in that same state and did protest it, &c... But the retribution I would deserve would be proportional to the harm I inflicted, though not in the rather crude Mesopotamian sense.

Of course this is all rather vague and uncertain, but I've found that in matters such as this it is often better to hedge and never be too sure of oneself, given the alarming propensity for humans to be incorrect, myself certainly not least among them. I'd nail down a more precise reading of the ethical views I tend to (try to) stick to, but I'm about four hours late to fetch supper, so ta for now.
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Helgoland

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #68271 on: January 23, 2015, 10:23:45 pm »

-Semi-Godwin-
This is one of the - fairly horrible - realizations I've had during the past year: I would've been a good Nazi, given the right circumstances. Those guys had a sufficiently consistent system, they were new and exciting, they had - as horrible as it may soundknowing what they did - a vision they followed... It certainly could've appealed to me, and I would've done terrible things in the name of that ideology.
The same thing goes for Communism and all its associated atrocities: Of course the kulaks must die! They oppress the workers! Of course we must kill the bourgeoisie! It is an inevitable step towards true Socialism!

Again: We must strictly distinguish between 'This action was bad' and 'This person is bad for performing that action'. I'll gladly go to war against anyone threatening the core principles I cherish, but I'll only condemn him morally if he could've known better.
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majikero

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #68272 on: January 23, 2015, 10:45:14 pm »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk

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Fniff

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #68273 on: January 23, 2015, 11:31:37 pm »

-Semi-Godwin-
This is one of the - fairly horrible - realizations I've had during the past year: I would've been a good Nazi, given the right circumstances. Those guys had a sufficiently consistent system, they were new and exciting, they had - as horrible as it may soundknowing what they did - a vision they followed... It certainly could've appealed to me, and I would've done terrible things in the name of that ideology.
The same thing goes for Communism and all its associated atrocities: Of course the kulaks must die! They oppress the workers! Of course we must kill the bourgeoisie! It is an inevitable step towards true Socialism!

Again: We must strictly distinguish between 'This action was bad' and 'This person is bad for performing that action'. I'll gladly go to war against anyone threatening the core principles I cherish, but I'll only condemn him morally if he could've known better.
I bet that in some other timeline, I was shot dead after trying to drive a car loaded with Semtex into a British checkpoint. All it takes is a set of circumstances and a few wrong turns, and anyone could end up in sod awful places regardless of personality type.

Helgoland

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #68274 on: January 23, 2015, 11:36:39 pm »

I bet that in some other timeline, I was shot dead after trying to drive a car loaded with Semtex into a British checkpoint.
And in yet another timeline, you succeeded...
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Xantalos

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #68275 on: January 23, 2015, 11:44:53 pm »

Also in the happy thread too :P
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i2amroy

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #68276 on: January 24, 2015, 12:05:16 am »

This is one of the - fairly horrible - realizations I've had during the past year: I would've been a good Nazi, given the right circumstances. Those guys had a sufficiently consistent system, they were new and exciting, they had - as horrible as it may soundknowing what they did - a vision they followed... It certainly could've appealed to me, and I would've done terrible things in the name of that ideology.
Funnily enough there is a fair bit of studies that have been done that show that quite a few things that the Nazi's did (promoting membership in a strong movement, promoting a sense of unit, etc.) can actually have some very high positive benefits to productivity, mental health, etc.. The problem was mainly that said things also tie people much closer to the beliefs and ideas of the leader of said movement, which means that it is very easy to turn that increased productivity and discipline to destroying whoever the leader decides should suffer their wrath (as Hitler did with non-aryans).
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Bohandas

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #68277 on: January 24, 2015, 12:32:15 am »

This is one of the - fairly horrible - realizations I've had during the past year: I would've been a good Nazi, given the right circumstances. Those guys had a sufficiently consistent system, they were new and exciting, they had - as horrible as it may soundknowing what they did - a vision they followed... It certainly could've appealed to me, and I would've done terrible things in the name of that ideology.
Funnily enough there is a fair bit of studies that have been done that show that quite a few things that the Nazi's did (promoting membership in a strong movement, promoting a sense of unit, etc.) can actually have some very high positive benefits to productivity, mental health, etc.. The problem was mainly that said things also tie people much closer to the beliefs and ideas of the leader of said movement, which means that it is very easy to turn that increased productivity and discipline to destroying whoever the leader decides should suffer their wrath (as Hitler did with non-aryans).
There's also positive things to be gained by trading your soul directly to Mephistopheles
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TD1

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #68278 on: January 24, 2015, 12:36:49 am »

If you call Satan on the Hell-Helpline, 666, he can patch you through to him I hear.
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Bohandas

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #68279 on: January 24, 2015, 12:37:13 am »

-Semi-Godwin-
This is one of the - fairly horrible - realizations I've had during the past year: I would've been a good Nazi, given the right circumstances. Those guys had a sufficiently consistent system, they were new and exciting, they had - as horrible as it may soundknowing what they did - a vision they followed... It certainly could've appealed to me, and I would've done terrible things in the name of that ideology.
The same thing goes for Communism and all its associated atrocities: Of course the kulaks must die! They oppress the workers! Of course we must kill the bourgeoisie! It is an inevitable step towards true Socialism!

Again: We must strictly distinguish between 'This action was bad' and 'This person is bad for performing that action'. I'll gladly go to war against anyone threatening the core principles I cherish, but I'll only condemn him morally if he could've known better.
I bet that in some other timeline, I was shot dead after trying to drive a car loaded with Semtex into a British checkpoint. All it takes is a set of circumstances and a few wrong turns, and anyone could end up in sod awful places regardless of personality type.

And then 400 years later anarchists start wearing masks with your face on them
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