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Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 14934903 times)

Helgoland

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #49425 on: May 15, 2014, 07:40:33 am »

Then there were the university students from Munich who were part of the White Rose Movement, which essentially handed out anti-Nazi leaflets. The leaders, whose names I now cannot remember, were beheaded.
The Scholl siblings. They were bloody fools - and IIRC a professor of theirs even told them that what they were doing wouldn't help anyone. Their story is a prime example of unnecessary martyrdom.

Nazi Germany was totalitarian, and there was no freedom of speech. During the final years, when it was clear the war would be lost, a single joke about the war, the Wehrmacht or the political leadership could get you executed - for "Wehrkraftzersetzung". The churches were, well, not suppressed, but given a hard time. Thousands of priests from both confessions were put in the death camps because they refused to collaborate. Artists and dissidents were either forced to emigrate or eliminated.
But the Nazi regime had a huge amount of support in the population. They were seen as responsible for the economic prosperity, and what they did was applauded as 'making Germany great again'. That's why the war was (initially) supported as well: It was seen as a war of revange, as a completely justified war.
And the people in general - my grandmother, may she rest in peace, apparently was an exception - didn't care much for the Jewish population, or for the other prosecuted people either. My mum grew up in the fifties and sixties, and she told me once that when that topic cae up - which was a very, very rare event -, people often said that what Hitler had done had been bad, and he shouldn't have; if he had just put them in forced-labor camps though... It's a common joke or sarcastic saying here that everyone was in the resistance. And everyone hid a Jew in their attic, too. And of course nobody had been a Nazi, how dare you suggest that?
Ah, that resistance bit is funny too: Italy had the partisans, France had La resistance, Poland had the various Polish units in the Allied armies, all countries in the east had partisans... And in Germany we had to invent the term 'inner resistance'. Because nobody actually did something. They just talked, and got killed for that without getting anywhere.

That last bit is not entirely true, though: There are actually two recorded instances where the population did not put up with Nazi orders and got their way. That was when - in Bavaria and in Lower Saxony, in the area where my family is from - they wanted to remove the crosses from the classrooms. That was their red line - not dead Jews, but a figurine of a man on two bits of wood.
The Lower Saxony bit may be the only instance of true resistance in Germany: During that time, Clemens August Graf von Galen was the bishop of Münster. He was no saint: He disliked the Weimar Republic, and supported the war against the Soviet Union. But holy crap did he hate the Nazis. A true old aristocrat he was, and he spoke his mind. Bishop was a very important position then - even today the area is rather religious for German standards -, and the people listened. The Nazis thought about deporting him, but decided against it - Goebbels feared an uprising. A goddamn uprising! That's how important he was. And that's why the handicapped people survived in that area. Elsewhere, they were deported and gassed, but in the Münsterland the Nazis weren't able to do that.
They still got the Jews, though.

And I don't think a lack of Article 46 could have prevented that. When the closest thing we have to a national hero was okay with Operation Barbarossa, a few words on paper can't do much.
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scrdest

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #49426 on: May 15, 2014, 08:17:59 am »

Obligatory: Polish resistance in occupied Poland was actually far larger and more active than French one.

Also, hadn't von Galen speaking out against it what actually stopped the Aktion T4? I recall something like that vaguely.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #49427 on: May 15, 2014, 08:48:41 am »

The French resistance is quite overhyped actually.

Resistance in other countries were as much, if not more important than the one in France.
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Sergarr

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #49428 on: May 15, 2014, 08:50:02 am »

photons are expected to have mass because they develop non-zero mass when inside superconductors

it's just that it's so ridiculously tiny that people are putting its upper limit below the higgs boson threshold
Higgs boson is ridicolously heavy. What do you mean?
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TD1

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #49429 on: May 15, 2014, 08:50:22 am »

Von Galen, I believe, was against euthanasia, and they told him it would be stopped? Instead, they merely made it more secretive.

As for national heroes, what about Streseman? He held up things mightily well, IIRC.

Edit: Ninjas :/
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Helgoland

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #49430 on: May 15, 2014, 08:53:07 am »

IIRC there was general resistance in the population against T4 - it was much less popular than disappearing Jews. The whole von Galen situation probaably played into that, too, yeah.


Do you remember the Room 101 scene from 1984? The bit with the rats was inspired by the methods of Tito's partisans. You take a captured soldiers' Stahlhelm, put a rat into it, fix it to his torso, and light a candle behind it...



Ninjaedit: Von Galen is not a national hero - he should be, though. What did Stresemann do, though? Wikipedia just tells me he was a better-than-average Weimar politician.
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TD1

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #49431 on: May 15, 2014, 08:59:44 am »

Well, Von Galen seems enough of a hero that I learned of him in history class, anyway.

As for Stresemann, the country would have gone to the dogs without him. He essentially got more time for Germany to fulfill the monetary compensation, and so stopped it going bankrupt. Not sure, but he may have helped the the recalling of money, too. Definitely, though, his work as Foreign Minister got Germany back onto the world stage, and if he had continued, Germany may have been relatively reconciled, leaving Hitler little to stand on. He didn't do anything during Nazi Germany, but he definitely kept Weimar Germany afloat.
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XXSockXX

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #49432 on: May 15, 2014, 09:15:26 am »

The churches were, well, not suppressed, but given a hard time. Thousands of priests from both confessions were put in the death camps because they refused to collaborate.
Actually while that is true, there was also a huge amount of collaboration from the churches. Especially the Protestant Church, no matter how much they only speak of those who resisted today, was in large parts supportive of the Nazis. Studies have shown that the Catholic milieu in Nazi Germany was more resistant ideologically speaking, but even the Pope went mostly with an appeasement policy. The churches were put under a lot of pressure, that's true, but they way they portray themselves as resistance movement today is a historical misrepresentation.

He didn't do anything during Nazi Germany, but he definitely kept Weimar Germany afloat.
Well, he died in 1929, so yeah. I'd say Stresemann, while maybe not considered a national hero (I don't think we really have many of those anyway with the general post-heroism here), is still held in high regard as one of the few actual democrats in the Weimar Republic.
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Arx

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #49433 on: May 15, 2014, 09:24:51 am »

I'm rather uncomfortable with staring bug-eyed at these notes knowing that the exam is in five hours.

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TD1

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #49434 on: May 15, 2014, 09:31:01 am »

Actually while that is true, there was also a huge amount of collaboration from the churches. Especially the Protestant Church, no matter how much they only speak of those who resisted today, was in large parts supportive of the Nazis. Studies have shown that the Catholic milieu in Nazi Germany was more resistant ideologically speaking, but even the Pope went mostly with an appeasement policy. The churches were put under a lot of pressure, that's true, but they way they portray themselves as resistance movement today is a historical misrepresentation.
They definitely weren't resistors, that is true. Although, I think the Catholic Church collaborated at least as much, and for less reasons. The Protestant Church wasn't really a unified Church. There were many different groups, and no one leader. It was a case of "Divide and conquer" except they were already divided. The Catholic Church was unified, and had a possibility of helping...instead, they made an agreement with the Nazi Party that as long as the Nazis didn't bother them, the Catholic Church wouldn't bother them.

But yes, they definitely weren't a resistance movement.
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XXSockXX

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #49435 on: May 15, 2014, 09:45:41 am »

Actually while that is true, there was also a huge amount of collaboration from the churches. Especially the Protestant Church, no matter how much they only speak of those who resisted today, was in large parts supportive of the Nazis. Studies have shown that the Catholic milieu in Nazi Germany was more resistant ideologically speaking, but even the Pope went mostly with an appeasement policy. The churches were put under a lot of pressure, that's true, but they way they portray themselves as resistance movement today is a historical misrepresentation.
They definitely weren't resistors, that is true. Although, I think the Catholic Church collaborated at least as much, and for less reasons. The Protestant Church wasn't really a unified Church. There were many different groups, and no one leader. It was a case of "Divide and conquer" except they were already divided. The Catholic Church was unified, and had a possibility of helping...instead, they made an agreement with the Nazi Party that as long as the Nazis didn't bother them, the Catholic Church wouldn't bother them.

But yes, they definitely weren't a resistance movement.
Well, I would argue that the German Protestant Church was (and is) relatively unified, definitely a lot more than the various forms of Protestantism you would find in Britain for example (not to speak of the Americas). German Protestantism has a long history of anti-semitism, going back to Luther, and, as the religion of the Prussian aristocracy, played an important role in German nationalism. I think today they have a tendency to only speak of the Confessing Church and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, which was a minority and largely try to forget that organisations like the German Christians existed.
It's like Henryk Broder (Jewish-German journalist) often says, the German resistance against Hitler is growing the longer he is dead.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 09:47:34 am by XXSockXX »
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Helgoland

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #49436 on: May 15, 2014, 12:36:36 pm »

There was - in the past - a tendency to view Catholics as not-entirely-loyal, and therefore suspect; just like in America. This goes back at least to Bismarck: The Kulturkampf and Catholics having their own party (the Zentrum) are just two symptoms of that. I don't have any information on the Nazi era, but the stereotype must have continued to exist.
Don't forget that European and American protestantism are completely unalike: European protestantism grew because aristocrats converted, and their subjects converted with them, while the old structures were conserved. It's much less sectarian.

And yeah, Luther was an asshole.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 06:35:12 pm by Helgoland »
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TD1

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #49437 on: May 15, 2014, 02:42:30 pm »

I know little of Luther except the obvious.

Why was he so bad?
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XXSockXX

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #49438 on: May 15, 2014, 03:04:11 pm »

I know little of Luther except the obvious.

Why was he so bad?
He was pretty antisemitic. Many of his contemporaries were of course, but he wrote some vitriolic books to really drive the point home. Also arguably, as a most influential religious leader, his antisemitism had a lasting impact on Protestantism in general and German antisemitism in particular.

There was - in the past - a tendency to view Catholics as not-entirely-loyal, and therefore suspect; just like in America. This goes back at least to Bismarck: The Kulturkampf and Catholics having their own party (the Zentrum) are just two symptoms of that. I don't have any information on the Naz era, but the stereotype must have continued to exist.
Yes, that's Ultramontanism, the view that Catholics owe obedience to the Catholic Church first, which made them potentially disloyal citizens (the Prussia-Austria dualism in Germany also plays a part in that). That plus being a minority made them a more closed milieu, which also led to them being slightly less susceptible to the Nazi ideology.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #49439 on: May 15, 2014, 03:11:36 pm »


The Catholic Church was unified, and had a possibility of helping...instead, they made an agreement with the Nazi Party that as long as the Nazis didn't bother them, the Catholic Church wouldn't bother them.


Actually, based on the memoirs I've read, there was quite a lot of "disguising Jews as catholics" going on during the war, which isn't talked about as much as folks like Schindler and the folks that hid the Franks because it didn't place the Church in any real danger (and also because many of the Jewish children hidden this way wound up converting to Catholicism after four or five years of living as one). Hitler may not have put any greater stock in Christianity than Stalin did, but unlike Stalin, he was wise (or at least cunning) enough to understand that the Church was a Power by virtue of influence alone, and his actions to avoid threatening or angering the Pope during the war indicates that the Church was one of only two Powers (the other being the United States, which he treated as officially neutral despite several blatant acts of war, including exchanges of fire between American and German naval units, as early as the spring of 1940) he really feared.
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