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[Loud Whispers]

I like the part of history where Hitler almost got to Art School but got denied, so he went to army, where he got his dose of antisemitism.

Baby Hitler's pretty replaceable. The Nazis could have gotten anyone who was a speaker to play his role. Now, if Hitler as Totalitarian Hitler slipped on a turtle and landed in a pool full of lamprey eels, that would have been historically significant.

Oh, and that.

Funny how our fate and history is often based on strokes of luck and coincidences

50% of our fate is determined by fortune. 40% is determined by our actions. 10% is determined by sandvich.

[10ebbor10]

Yup, the assassination of Franz Ferdinant is a bloody story of mindboggeling incompetence.


Edit: Fits less, but well.

[XXSockXX]

Without the miracle of Dunkirk enabled by the rearguard, Britain would have suffered a terrible defeat which could have forced surrender

From what I've read recently that happened only because Hitler delayed the attack on Dunkirk for a day, because he wanted to show his staff of generals who was in command. His hybris of thinking he was a good commander put him in conflict with the generals several times early in the war.
That might really have ended the war much differently, might be one of the things on the very short list of good things Hitler did (not on purpose of course).

[Mephansteras]

Hitler's interference with his generals caused quite a bit of trouble for the Germans. Having someone else in charge would probably have had a huge effect on the overall course of the war, even if it didn't stop the Nazi's from coming into power.

[Loud Whispers]

Without the miracle of Dunkirk enabled by the rearguard, Britain would have suffered a terrible defeat which could have forced surrender

From what I've read recently that happened only because Hitler delayed the attack on Dunkirk for a day, because he wanted to show his staff of generals who was in command. His hybris of thinking he was a good commander put him in conflict with the generals several times early in the war.
That might really have ended the war much differently, might be one of the things on the very short list of good things Hitler did (not on purpose of course).

Nah, Hitler listened to his generals this time IIRC. The tanks were worn out, in need of maintenance after getting battered by the French rearguard. He ordered the tanks to wait so that the infantry could catch up and communication lines could be restored, given that there was also heavy air superiority for the Germans evacuation for the encircled French and British was really unlikely.
Hence why it's also called the miracle of Dunkirk... It really was.
Someone going to make a history thread?

[Dutchling]

So. Any good historic books on that which do not cost hundreds of dollars?

[Pnx]

Oh, and that.

Funny how our fate and history is often based on strokes of luck and coincidences

50% of our fate is determined by fortune. 40% is determined by our actions. 10% is determined by sandvich.

People say that kind of thing but honesty it's far less random chance and more deterministic momentum then you'd think.

WW1 had been building up for years before the assassination, it really started to kick off when the central powers aligned, and then Russia/France/Britain got together and formed the triple entente against them. The assassination of Franz Ferdinand was just the spark that lit the powder keg, it would have probably gone off sooner or later given the political situation.

[XXSockXX]

So. Any good historic books on that which do not cost hundreds of dollars?

There is a relatively new book by a historian who has reconstructed this version of events from documents. Here's a short interview in german, where I read about that recently. (Or rather the book isn't that new, but I assume the 4th edition has new material.)
The book is: Karl-Heinz Frieser: "Blitzkrieg-Legende: Der Westfeldzug 1940". (Oldenburg, München. 4. Auflage 2012. 496 S., 29,80 Euro)

The tanks were worn out, in need of maintenance after getting battered by the French rearguard.

In the interview Frieser basically calls this a legend, says Hitler had later claimed he didn't want to kill the "bloodrelated" english troops, while records by his adjutant call it a demonstration of power to the generals.

As with all historic research, there is no undebatable account of things of course.

[10ebbor10]

Then again, it might be that the belief that war was unavoidable was what ended up causing it. Primly because of mobilization times. Germany could mobilize quickly, but they would be outnumbered if fighting the full force of the enemy at once. Russia needed more than 3 months for mobilization, meaning that they needed to act quickly or be overrun. So when Russia started mobilizing, Germany felt they needed to attack, or would be overrun.

Edit: Throw in the rest of Europe and a massive amount of conflicting treaties to get what really happened.

[XXSockXX]

The thing that always gets to me about WW1 is the euphoria of the soldiers and huge parts of the population at the beginning of the war. They went into the first modern and total war as if it was a sports event, with the attitude of 19th century pseudo-aristocrats. Little did they know...

[Steelmagic]

Hitler had a tendency to barely survive assassination attempts. In operation Valkyrie they changed the meeting area, but with both bombs he still would've been screwed. I believe another guy planned to grab him and blow them both up when he was showing Hitler the new uniforms but lost his legs on the Eastern Front.

[Loud Whispers]

In the interview Frieser basically calls this a legend, says Hitler had later claimed he didn't want to kill the "bloodrelated" english troops, while records by his adjutant call it a demonstration of power to the generals.

As with all historic research, there is no undebatable account of things of course.

Yet he ordered the attempted denial of the evacuation with the Luftwaffe, he had no qualms about killing them. Could be just as likely that he wanted them to surrender though.

[Lord Shonus]

Then again, it might be that the belief that war was unavoidable was what ended up causing it. Primly because of mobilization times. Germany could mobilize quickly, but they would be outnumbered if fighting the full force of the enemy at once. Russia needed more than 3 months for mobilization, meaning that they needed to act quickly or be overrun. So when Russia started mobilizing, Germany felt they needed to attack, or would be overrun.

Edit: Throw in the rest of Europe and a massive amount of conflicting treaties to get what really happened.

What the history books never tell you is that every nation in Europe wanted to go to war. France wanted to regain territory that had been lost to Germany in the Franco-Prussian war, while Britain (with it's massive empire relying on naval trade lanes which relied on their fleet) wanted to crush the German Empire's growing High Seas Fleet, which was viewed as a threat to British dominion over the sea. On Germany's end, war was seen as an excellent way to gain more French territory and grab some of the lucrative African regions, so that they would have their own colonial empire. The Russian Empire, fresh from defeat against Japan, wanted a victorious war to dispel European belief in the inferiority of Russian arms. Naturally, the other nations had their own goals. The various treaties and alliances that are often cited as the cause of the war were, in fact, the opening moves, as each Power joined itself to Powers that were opposed to Powers aligned with the Power that was their intended enemy.

[Loud Whispers]

Disregarding state-funded history books, most of them talk about how all the Europeans except Italy wanted to go to waagh.
Really tells a lot about a country's government in the way they talk about their history.

[Neonivek]

Look suffice it to say... People love to butcher history and will always butcher history and you will never get accurate data on history.

There is a reason why Popular History is so absolutely annoying when you actually know the real history.

"Ohh and then the Pilgrims met the Indians and they shared pumpkin pie and lived happily ever after until the Indians started shooting the pilgrims with arrows, and that is why we put them on reservations"