Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[quinnr]

You thought the Boston bomber was cute? No, no, Tumblr has got this:
http://hottiesfromhistory.tumblr.com/post/3528877074/hottie-from-history-37-lewis-thornton

[Neonivek]

Has anyone noticed that whenever someone does a "Fantasy things in modern times" they almost ALWAYS seriously upgrade the monsters and creatures just so they stand a chance in modern times yet they don't really change the fantasy elements to support this?

In Shadow Run the dragons are pretty much gods because they have to be able to take on entire groups of tanks and mages.

In Legend (bad videogame) the Griffons basically have bullet proof hide that you need outright anti-tank weaponry to take out. How did any hero other then Hercules take them out? (and no, there is no reason why heroes were able to take on monsters in the past, by all means they shouldn't)

Why doesn't a game that is about fantasy/mythological monsters in modern times or the future ever treat the creature like it would be in the period it existed?

Why do all monsters somehow get this HUGE upgrade the second they step into modern times or the future?

[Flying Dice]

Because a game/story where every hostile creature could be gunned down without any real danger would be incredibly boring? Unless you're the sort of person who would have enjoyed slaughtering buffalo en masse from a train.

[Slayerhero90]

Because a game/story where every hostile creature could be gunned down without any real danger would be incredibly boring? Unless you're the sort of person who would have enjoyed slaughtering buffalo en masse from a train.

But that's so fun!

[Solifuge]

Has anyone noticed that whenever someone does a "Fantasy things in modern times" they almost ALWAYS seriously upgrade the monsters and creatures just so they stand a chance in modern times yet they don't really change the fantasy elements to support this?

In Shadow Run the dragons are pretty much gods because they have to be able to take on entire groups of tanks and mages.

I actually like how Shadowrun handled Dragons. They're super powerful not because they're more bullet-proof, but because they can directly manipulate luck and fate. Strong winds deflect bullets that are fired against them, bad events happen to those who oppose them, etc. Even if you dropped a nuke on a dragon, their innate luck would make it end up being a dud and not go off properly. In-game, this takes the form of special powers the GM can use to influence just about any die roll concerning a Dragon, such as making it go horribly awry, or preventing it from happening entirely.

Pretty cool, actually.

[Devling]

If humans can advance in technology, no reason fantasy creatures can't.
Most of them are as intelligent as us, atleast in some mythologies.

Tank Gryphons anyone?

[NobodyPro]

EDIT: Dammit, browser ate my reply.

Basically was: Griffons are a cross between lions and eagles. A muscle-bound stalker of the plains and a bird that could break your neck if it wanted to. That griffon battle should have been more like STALKER/Metro and less like Gears of War/Halo.

[Frumple]

I've... never actually noticed that tendency, at least with the stuff I've ran into with fantasy/sci-fi mixtures (which is admittedly fairly limited exposure... mostly shadowrun and a smattering of fanfiction). Most of the stuff I've seen tend to not "upgrade" historical critters during the transition (unless it's through sticking robot arms on them or somethin'.) -- either past times lean toward considerably more bloody for squishy monkeys (with magic or patrons or hiding or whatever possibly being mitigating factors), or stuff that slams into the present gets splattered by high caliber weapons fire. Or some combination of both where you're suddenly dealing with incredibly asymmetrical combat situations where both "sides" are running into outside context problems and things get really interesting.

That last one. That one can be fun, especially as both sides start figuring out what's going on and intermixing methodologies. Major potential for shit to get wonderfully crazy.

... now if only I can remember where I've encountered it before. I know I have, but...

[Neonivek]

Most of the stuff I've seen tend to not "upgrade" historical critters during the transition

They did it with Dragons that is for sure. How were Knights supposed to win? They are nearly unbeatable in modern times.

Because a game/story where every hostile creature could be gunned down without any real danger would be incredibly boring? Unless you're the sort of person who would have enjoyed slaughtering buffalo en masse from a train

There are ways you can do it.

I actually like how Shadowrun handled Dragons. They're super powerful not because they're more bullet-proof, but because they can directly manipulate luck and fate

It still kind of has the same issue where they are so powerful that there is no reasonable way that they could have been beaten in the past.

Honestly I'd dare you to make a Knight with a 20 person entourage of non-magical people and just try to take down a Shadowrun dragon. Dragons in shadowrun are basically gods.

Or some combination of both where you're suddenly dealing with incredibly asymmetrical combat situations where both "sides" are running into outside context problems and things get really interesting

I have read the Witchcraft pen and paper RPG (Unisystem one). Where in the medieval age Angels, Demons, and Demigods (and heck outright gods) were extremely powerful able to take down armies... But in the modern times human beings caught up.

Or rather as they say a Seraphim could take down a medieval army, but could be defeated by a single fighter jet. At the same time however, while they are essentially much weaker in the modern times (because modern day weaponry is much better then medieval weaponry), they aren't something to laugh at. Given that the Seraphim could erase you from history, it isn't like they aren't to be feared.

It is kind of interesting. A Abrams Tank would kill Hercules in a single blow.

[Frumple]

They did it with Dragons that is for sure. How were Knights supposed to win? They are nearly unbeatable in modern times.

Maaaagiiiiccc. Also other dragons possibly screwing around. Or other mondo-big-bad-tier buggers giving the knights in question a leg up. Or a bunch of lesser critters throwing some weight around. Etc., so forth, so on. Magic, patrons (/allies), trickery. Guns, numbers, backstabbing. Same sort of thing. Shadowrun magic had some pretty big mojo flying around, though, so that kinda' explains how stuff was getting offed back when magic was waxing the last time.

All adding high ordinance does is provide another tool... if stuff was managing to off dragons back then, then heavy weaponry isn't a necessary tool, y'know? Maybe better at it in some ways, though, sure.

[Neonivek]

Maaaagiiiiccc

Ignoring that most of them didn't have magic... the magic values the dragons had gives them such high counter stats that they could fall asleep in a room of arch mages and not worry about it.

As I said they are basically gods.

Or a bunch of lesser critters throwing some weight around

There are none that would be of any help. Their magic and strength pales in comparison.

if stuff was managing to off dragons back then, then heavy weaponry isn't a necessary tool, y'know?

They stated the dragons out though... and with the strength and tools the dragons have...

The Seraphim in Witchcraft make sense why they were unstoppable in the medieval age and stoppable in the modern one. They stated them and indeed they could slice through platemail like butter and take a crossbow bolt like it was nothing. Yet a Jet's Rocket isn't something it can just take and that is reflected in the stats (Anti-armor Rockets are 5 times armor piercing. Normal armor piercing ammo is only 2 pierce).

The Dragons in Shadow run however? They could take a tank shell. Heck you could blow up ten pounds of plastic on them. Their scales are already so thick that absolutely no medieval weapon could touch it. This is because the dragons are balanced to the time Shadowrun takes place in and not the period dragons existed in.

[Flying Dice]

* Flying Dice sighs.

Here's the problem with trying to quantify fluff potentiality with stats: it doesn't work very well. Hell, stats can't even predict fluke dice rolls, much less the crazy things that can happen when the only arbitrary rules are the physical laws of the universe, and in a setting with functional magic those have been bent over the table already.

[GlyphGryph]

Is there any evidence that historical dragons in shadowrun mythology WEREN'T just as god-like?

Because there are LOTS of draconic traditions around the world, and at least some of the Shadowrun dragons definitely seem to lean more towards the traditional "dragons are demigods" mythos, where dragons just plain WEREN'T ever defeated by primitive weaponry. The idea that any mere mortal, or even any mortal army, could successfully defeat a dragon is limited to a fairly small subset of the lore and literature in which dragons play a role. Modern takes vary even more highly, especially in sci-fi, from the Dragon Gods of Shadowrun to the almost natural dragons of Pern.

And now, take Griffins - Griffins were divine creatures, who were both favoured with heavenly protection and able to fly at the speed of lightning. There is no mythological basis, from the evidence I've seen, of any primitive man EVER being able to take down a griffin - it just wasn't done. They were seen as icons of courage and overwhelming power for good reason.

If you ask me, you're description of Griffin's as mere "flying tanks" seems like an incredibly downgrade in their abilities for a modern audience. It left them their divine protection in the shape of their impossibly tough hide, but seems to have robbed them of their super-speed, right?

[Devling]

Maybe they shoot mininukes too?

[Neonivek]

What I mean is that as soon as a mythological creature seems to step into the modern of sci-fi times they tend to gain power and abilities far outstripping what their challengers would have in the medieval times.

Is there any evidence that historical dragons in shadowrun mythology WEREN'T just as god-like?

No I mean the issue is... what confuses me soooo much. Is that the historical dragons WERE just as god like as far as anyone knows in shadowrun.

They are so powerful in Shadowrun that there is no reasonable way anyone from the past could have taken them on... Yet we know they were.

It is why quite a few people in Shadowrun believe that the dragon myths were exactly that... Visions of dragons but not the genuine article. Since a real dragon could take on King Arthur's court... and there is no indication of why a Dragon would be weaker (though it would somewhat explain why they left if their magic waned until they could be taken on by mear mortals)

If you ask me, you're description of Griffin's as mere "flying tanks" seems like an incredibly downgrade in their abilities for a modern audience

They have a certain logic to them. A breaking point that could have been seen within the mythology they were in.

Being able to take anti-tank rockets however and shake it off is something extremely outlandish. Especially since there were possibly over a million of them.

I mean the Nemian Lion's hide was so hard that no weapon could harm it, the Nemian Boar survived a thousand arrows.

 

seems to have robbed them of their super-speed, right?

No they could still fly and as far as the game is concerned they could reach speeds required to catch up to most aircraft (and were capable of high altitude flight). The protagonist actually had to use super sonic aircraft to avoid them.

As well the "Speed of Lightning" is likely a hyperbole even within the myths it appeared in (especially since they never USE their lightning speed if it was really that fast... In fact the myths even suggest a MUCH slower speed). It likely means they have blinding speed which for the time period is perhaps 300mph minimum.