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[Lord Shonus]

Besides being a revered icon of the holidays, a cherished memory of childhood for most people, and a critical part of modern cultural mythology on many places, Santa serves as an archetypical Big Good. Santa Claus is a way for people to instill the concept of unflinching generosity and compassion in their children, giving them a symbol, free of the debate attached to religious figures, that even secular and non-religious households can accept. In addition, because no adults think that Santa is real, he provides a valuable coming-of-age moment when the child either figures it out or is told the truth. In any case, Santa is a symbol so ingrained in the American cultural landscape that telling second-graders that Santa is just a story is, at the least, extremely disrespectful.

I personally see zero value in it being a "coming of age" thing. What, indeed, does it teach of value? That parents lie to their kids? That not everything is as you're told? Trust between parent and child is an important thing, and if anything, I think lying to them (even white lies like this) only damages that.

As for disrespect to the culture surrounding it, I think you underestimate the value of fiction. Who cares if it's real or not? The story and experiences lose zero value if you know it's just a story. I do not think Santa Claus would lose any value as a cultural icon, positive role model, etc etc if he is not based around delusion.

It is in fact exactly that that is valuable. Beginning to see your parents as flawed human beings instead of godlike protectors is integral to healthy development. So is recognizing that being a grown-up does not mean discarding your sense of fantasy and whimsey. The Santa myth allows for both.

As for fiction, I don't know how much you remember of your childhood, but fiction and reality are inherently blurred to a child, because they do not yet truly grasp much of reality. To a seven year old, you can really get to a giant's castle with magic beans; and there are mermaids under the seas while witches live in candy houses in the woods. Even if you teach a child that babies come from sex and thunder is superheated air from an electrical arc, they are likely to prefer to believe in the stork and the bowling angels anyway, because those are more accessible, more wonderful concepts to a child.

[Loud Whispers]

As for fiction, I don't know how much you remember of your childhood, but fiction and reality are inherently blurred to a child, because they do not yet truly grasp much of reality. To a seven year old, you can really get to a giant's castle with magic beans; and there are mermaids under the seas while witches live in candy houses in the woods. Even if you teach a child that babies come from sex and thunder is superheated air from an electrical arc, they are likely to prefer to believe in the stork and the bowling angels anyway, because those are more accessible, more wonderful concepts to a child.

What kind of childhood is that? LULULULLULU how depressing actually.

[kaijyuu]

It is in fact exactly that that is valuable. Beginning to see your parents as flawed human beings instead of godlike protectors is integral to healthy development. So is recognizing that being a grown-up does not mean discarding your sense of fantasy and whimsey. The Santa myth allows for both.

It teaches distrust. You can call this practical and pragmatic and all that; I won't disagree with that. Parents are indeed human and make mistakes. Children, however, can learn that through real mistakes their parents make, not fabrications.

Teaching distrust is something I'm quite morally against. It's practical to be defensive and assume other people are trying to manipulate you or might let you down, but at the same time it causes... distance. This is especially bad between family members, the people you should probably be closest to, but really applies to all your relationships.

As for fiction, I don't know how much you remember of your childhood, but fiction and reality are inherently blurred to a child, because they do not yet truly grasp much of reality. To a seven year old, you can really get to a giant's castle with magic beans; and there are mermaids under the seas while witches live in candy houses in the woods. Even if you teach a child that babies come from sex and thunder is superheated air from an electrical arc, they are likely to prefer to believe in the stork and the bowling angels anyway, because those are more accessible, more wonderful concepts to a child.

I know there's a stage in development where fiction isn't understood as a concept. I honestly don't remember that point in my childhood; my earliest memories include playing with toys and making up stories for them. I built entire worlds out of lego, and lost myself in them. I never thought I was really making worlds or that those action figures were real people. Imaginary friends were always imaginary. Suspension of disbelief is something I picked up early, and I don't think I was particularly atypical in that.

There's nothing wrong with a child wanting to believe more mystical explanations, like storks or whatever, provided it's a choice they actually make. I just don't think parents should present these mystical explanations as factual. There's plenty of room for mysticism, wonder, and all that without lying.

[SalmonGod]

I was raised Jehovah's Witness until the age of 9 or so.  No holidays for me growing up.  Back then, I couldn't believe how all the other kids bought into the Santa Claus bullshit     Around Christmas, I felt like the only sane person... come to think of it, that hasn't changed much.  I still don't get holidays.

[Lord Shonus]

How many children do you know that trusted their parents one iota less after learning about Santa then they did before? I can tell you exactly how many in my experience (bear in mind that I come from a very large extended family.)



Not a single one. In fact, In my experience its the parents who avoid "lying" that have distance and distrust, because they never bond properly.

[justinlee999]

Santa Claus here is just a capitalistic figure that people use to distribute promotional items for their company.

EDIT: Also if memory serves me right I already enjoyed reading Enid Blyton's books and knew that all of the fantasy creatures do not exist, though I do like to create stories about them, when I was around Standard 3 (grade 3 equivalent I guess).

But I'm pretty sure I don't believe in them already before I was Standard 3.

[Loud Whispers]

I was raised Jehovah's Witness until the age of 9 or so.  No holidays for me growing up.  Back then, I couldn't believe how all the other kids bought into the Santa Claus bullshit     Around Christmas, I felt like the only sane person... come to think of it, that hasn't changed much.  I still don't get holidays.

I was raised in a Christian school, but I always had a desire to learn more about the world, even got a bank full of encyclopedia's for christmasses and what not, total egg head ;P
That's why when Santa Claus Commercialism and Religious* indoctrination** really just annoyed me...

*Don't focus on this part.
**Focus on this part.

Knowledge > Superstition much?

[Criptfeind]

Once upon a time I stayed up late in the night randomly following web comic links. At the end of the line I found a guy I knew I had to use as my forum avatar.

The issue is the web comic has a really really strange name I can never remember, and I keep losing my bookmarks to it. So every once in a while I need to retract my steps that night to get a new avatar. But man when I am lucid I can tell I did some strange things that night.

There are some very odd web comics hiding in the corners of the internet. Strange stuff.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

In fact, In my experience its the parents who avoid "lying" that have distance and distrust, because they never bond properly.

What in the world are you talking about? It's not "lying", it's lying. And it certainly doesn't breed distrust to be honest. That's completely illogical. The Santa myth is an exploitation of a child's magical thinking stage of development. Magical thinking is a necessary phase of growing up because it, in a sense, "unlocks" creative thoughts and deeper mental exploration in children, but it is also just that: a phase. And the most important part of it is learning how to leave it, because that allows for suspension of disbelief and creates a clear line between reality and fantasy. Exposing a child to the Santa myth feeds the magical thinking stage, causing it to not expire as quickly as it should. This is only exasperated by some parents who will insist on trying to perpetuate this myth and hide the truth once their children begin to catch on.

Honestly, I don't know how "don't lie to your kids" is such a disputed point. Parenting is not so complex that you must embark on crazy counter-intuitive schemes to try and raise a good child. In fact, such actions probably are a good way to get messed up children.

[Lord Shonus]

The problem with that thinking is that children (with exceptions) are not simply tiny adults. Trying to treat them as such is proven to cause them to grow up less emotionally and psycholgically sound. The suicide rate among products of the "brutal honesty" theory of child-rearing is (depending on study) five to thirty times that of more traditional methods. Yes, some children grow into maturity extremely early. Those are the exception.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The problem with that thinking is that children (with exceptions) are not simply tiny adults. Trying to treat them as such is proven to cause them to grow up less emotionally and psycholgically sound.

Which I never argued. The important thing with children is to ensure that they grow up and go through all of the standard human psychological and physiological stages of growth, taking them from infant to adult. Any failures along this clearly observable process of development and maturation will more likely than not cause mental and physical issues that will remain with the child in question for the remainder of their life. That is why the Santa myth is a bad thing. You don't have to force magical thinking on children; they just do it. By forcing it, you are pushing the developmental process to its limits, and doing that risks causing a break. Both crushing the magical thinking stage and extending it's lifespan will permanently scar a child's way of thinking. One extreme ends up with lessened problem-solving ability and creativity; while the other leads to a lack of critical thought and a less-defined boundary between reality and fiction. Both are very large problems; fitting as the magical thinking stage is early in childhood.

The suicide rate among products of the "brutal honesty" theory of child-rearing is (depending on study) five to thirty times that of more traditional methods. Yes, some children grow into maturity extremely early. Those are the exception.

A. Source.

B. Define "brutal honesty" and "traditional methods".

C. This is not an argumentative list, my argument is above.

[Lord Shonus]

You're making a false dichtotomy here. You're arguing that the options are to leave a child be in their imaginative state, or to prolog it beyond the time that is natural. Neither of those are good options. The proper option is to use a child's imagination as a bonding tool. Raising a young child properly is pretty much a freeform roleplaying exercise. It's fairly easy to bond, one-on-one with a child using on-the-fly games and stories. But, equally important, are games and stories that the child shares, not just with their parents and siblings, but the community of children at large. Even better is when those shared myths encourage a concept of great good. I'm not talking about the naughty/nice aspect, which many object to. I'm referring to a shared belief in a man who is the literal incarnation of Generosity.


As for the studies I mentioned, I read them back during the Tiger Mother thing awhile ago, and don't have them handy.

[justinlee999]

Isn't brutal honesty in the Tiger Mother sense as in "You scumbag child, good-for-nothing dickhead"

[Lord Shonus]

In the strictest sense, maybe. The studies in question, however, took in a much broader range of environments. In any case, MaximumZero and I are much closer in opinion than I thought we were at first. It appeared to be yet another person who insists that you must never tell anything to your children that's not solid verifiable fact, and fairy tales make your child want to kill you in your sleep for lying to them, something I've been hearing a lot from people lately.

[Bdthemag]

My parents told me fairy tales when I was a kid, and when they told me they were never real I never flipped out. Maybe it was because I already had a feeling it was all bullshit, so it wasn't really that big of a deal to me.