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Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 13653462 times)

heydude6

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #165015 on: June 29, 2024, 03:19:40 pm »

Not that I know of. All I've got is the classic phrase "You've got to laugh cause otherwise you'd have to cry"

It's funny that this phenomena is well known enough that we have a saying for it, but people have yet to coin a term for it. Tragicomedy (or Tragicomedic) comes close, but that refers to a genre of joke, not something you're supposed to see in the real world.
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Lets use the ancient naval art of training war parrots. No one will realize they have been boarded by space war parrots until it is to late!
You can fake being able to run on water. You can't fake looking cool when you break your foot on a door and hit your head on the floor.

femmelf

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #165016 on: June 29, 2024, 10:59:03 pm »

That is just freaking sad. I don't want homeless people on the sidewalk I have to go down. I think the difference is I want them put in a warm place with food that isn't jail. You know, not dying. Then I remember star trek had this problem with sanctuary zones and bell riots. O crap.Wasn't that supposed to happen in 2024 in the show? This is gonna end bad isn't it?

What is chevron? Why is it dead? Hey T can you help us understand this?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2024, 11:06:03 pm by femmelf »
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #165017 on: June 30, 2024, 12:12:51 am »

What is chevron? Why is it dead? Hey T can you help us understand this?

Chevron doctrine, named after the Supreme Court case that established it in 1984, instituted a two-part test for determining if a US federal regulatory body was acting within the legitimate boundaries of the laws they were created to enforce. If the decision was not explicitly and blatantly within the strict letter of the law as set down by Congress (the first part of the test), but was a reasonable extrapolation from said letter of the law, the regulation was valid. Courts were expected to defer to the judgement of the agency that a decision was reasonable unless it was an extremely obvious overstep of their Congressional remit.

A recent decision of the Supreme Court altered this, requiring the courts to determine the difference between an agency fulfilling their legal responsibility and that same agency essentially creating laws out of thin air. This is a concern for two reasons. First, most laws written within the last 40 years were written with the doctrine in mind, meaning that much was left vague to leave room for the agencies to easily respond to changes. The second is that there's real fear that partisan right-leaning judges will be actively looking for excuses to kill "job killing" regulations.

In the end, things probably won't be nearly as bad as people fear, not least because the new rules are going to be a massive burden on the courts. It does bring a great deal of chaos to the near future regulatory landscape.
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On Giant In the Playground and Something Awful I am Gnoman.
Man, ninja'd by a potentially inebriated Lord Shonus. I was gonna say to burn it.

Truean

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #165018 on: June 30, 2024, 12:14:31 am »

[Please do not Quote]


The homelessness is now a crime thing? Yup, that will be very bad with rent just gong straight up. If you mean this for the Star Trek thing: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Sanctuary_District Stuff is going to get real bad and public defenders are going to have even more difficult times dealing with it without any additional resources....

As for Chevron, I tend to avoid legal questions online, because the trolls are just overwhelming along with the fake "experts"/propoganda and believe it or not Chevron (unintentionally to the Republicans pushing it under Reagan in 1984) countered the real world equivalent of that .... It let scientists, doctors, and experts fill in blanks in statutory laws passed by congress that congress puts there. Now, ... that's way harder. When the Chevron Rule worked for Republicans it was "great," but when it did not, it was "bad."

If you want the details or the TL;DR version then below or the end.... If you take legal advice online, you're dumb, and this is not legal advice  because most like me who actually get it don't have time to go through all the actual implications of this and several who pretend to oversimplify it to the point of uselessness.

Chevron What happened: 1977 Congress amends Clean Air Act  of 1963. Requires any "stationary source" of air pollution to pass EPA "new-source review." EPA interprets "source" covering nearly any change at factory or plant, a single machine, smokestack boiler, etc. was "source" & triggered test. 1981, with Ronald Reagan current POTUS, EPA changed interpretation of "source" as only the entire plant or factory (less strict, favored big business under Republican president). Means less review/testing for air pollution. Big companies abused this to avoid "new source review," by (usually lying) about other changes to reduce overall emissions by the "same amount." More industrial projects, less air pollution testing, more air pollution. No industries do NOT care about air pollution without some intervention https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/deadly-donora-smog-1948-spurred-environmental-protection-have-we-forgotten-lesson-180970533/

1981 environmental group sues. 1984, SCOTUS issues 6-0 unanimous decision republicans under Regan LOVED Chevron....SCOTUS ruled Congress' intentional ambiguity delegated the EPA "policy decision" power on what "source" meant in the Clean Air Act. Ironically, Chevron decision emphasized the U.S. Judiciary was not a political branch of government and federal judges should not set policy.

What was the Chevron method/test: Two part test: 1, did Congress speak directly to the precise issue in question and 2.) "whether the agency's answer is based on a permissible construction of the statute." They Agency had experts, doctors, scientists, that went through a whole formal rule making process debating and addressing public comments, etc.

If you want the exact text:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Congress could always (and sometimes did) pass a new law if it ever disagreed with an agency interpretation by experts, or it could otherwise have the agency change its mind through funding, etc. Congress was never out of the loop in its delegated authority to agencies. Chevron has been dying since the "Major Question Doctrine" was introduced largely in 2022. And this is part of what messed up Biden's student loan forgiveness in Biden v. Nebraska... (This is why you didn't get $10K or more forgiven...) when the Department of Education used the Heroes Act, and all that. Again, this is more recent longstanding precedent overturns so it was not really predicable how it would shake out.... It should have gone through under almost 40 years of precedent.... But then... more overturning, etc.

TL;DR; You don't want any technical stuff?. Chevron was a Republican favored thing that worked for  Reagan. It worked for Republicans because the EPA (started by Nixon, a Republican) loosened the pollution rules with Reagan appointees. The lower courts like the D.C circuit tried to step in and say they couldn't do that with the "notorious RBG" (Ruth Bater Ginsburg who would later wind up on the SCOTUS). SCOTUS's Chevron decision slapped that down and kept the relaxed EPA rule. When Chervon stopped working for republicans, because scientists and experts got involved in agency decisions, they turned against it (when agencies started using science and method instead of just dictates from the top). Before Chevron, you'd argue in court for years  over the meaning of everything. After Chevron, a whole group of scientists/doctors would debate the issue with public comments addressed to form the rule based on expertise with required answering of public questions. Now, you're going to have to go in front of a federal judge and we all know that is going to favor the deep pockets (e.g. Fisheries who want to overfish. Polluters who want to over pollute, food processing plants who don't want to pay for pest control so rats get in, FDA determinations of what is safe, etc.). Revoking Chevron absolutely does not "make it so the governing statute is what you use." You always used the governing statute, and if the experts were against the statutory law they got smacked down. They got listened to if they weren't against the statutory law as written. Chevron let the experts actually weigh in on any gaps congress left on purpose. Now.... good luck with that.... I want the food scientist and the doctor who work for the FDA determining the "minimum safe rodent incident" in a "food processing plant" based off multiple peer reviewed studies, expert discussion and public comment, rather than an un elected federal judge second guessing it because the food processing plant owner does not want to pay to keep the rats out of the food processing vats holding the food. That's what we have now though with Chevron revoked....

If you think I'm wrong that this will be a flaming crap show, let me just say that nursing home operation companies are just chomping at the bit to  get rid of minimum staffing requirements to actually hire and pay people to take care of their residents (Note, this is not the staff of medical professionals as the problem, but the greedy for profit companies that don't want to pay the nurses):

https://www.mcknights.com/news/with-the-wicked-witch-of-regulation-dead-nursing-home-staffing-rule-could-follow/
That's right, the big healthcare companies don't want to hire enough nurses to care for you or pay them.... They will throw money at getting rid of the agency rule saying they have to hire and pay a minimum number of people to care for you.... It gets worse. Congress did not specify, because they trusted healthcare regulators to figure it out and congress will never agree on anything. That's right, big business does not want to hire and pay a minimum amount of staffing nurses to care for you and they hate the agency rule that makes them.... They wasted no time saying it in their trade papers....

This will be a major issue....
[Please do not Quote]
« Last Edit: June 30, 2024, 09:30:38 am by Truean »
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

femmelf

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #165019 on: June 30, 2024, 12:38:36 am »

Holy crap. Thank you very much ma'am.
I think I get it and I am now a little worried.
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Eric Blank

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #165020 on: June 30, 2024, 01:39:16 am »

I second that Healthcare industry part, because I've lived it; every member of my family has in fact. We never have enough staff on hand, patients aren't getting the care they need and staff are getting injured on the job and making mistakes in their work more often trying to run back and forth constantly and do procedures alone that require a second person who just isnt *there* which makes the problem worse because theres nobody to cover for staff that get sick or injured. There arent back-up staff, they don't hire extras. It's a nightmare, you don't want your parents ending up in a nursing home. But if you ask HR where the fuck your reinforcement are they say "nOboDy WanTs tO wOrK AnyMOre"

They never fucking hire anybody that applies.

Your loved ones will be suffering and dying as a result of this issue getting worse.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2024, 01:43:39 am by Eric Blank »
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I make Spellcrafts!
I have no idea where anything is. I have no idea what anything does. This is not merely a madhouse designed by a madman, but a madhouse designed by many madmen, each with an intense hatred for the previous madman's unique flavour of madness.

Great Order

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #165021 on: June 30, 2024, 09:46:21 pm »

Lockpicking continues, out of the two I have one of them's impossible for me, and ironically I think it's because it's so shit. The tolerances are fucked so the pins catch constantly, and there's honest to God ledges inside the tumbler. Whoever cast it deserves a firing.
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I may have spent too long in darkness
In the warmth of my fears

Truean

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #165022 on: July 01, 2024, 10:03:46 am »

[Please do not quote]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/supreme-court-release-decision-historic-134043215.html

Supreme Court awards Donald Trump some unclear immunity from prosecution.... The dissents call it terrifying.... The 6-3 majority says that is just fearmongering....

The line does not seem to be clear. "Official act...." Combined with Chevron being gone a DOJ experts report won't necessarily be listened to.

WTF: Could Nixon have been immune on Watergate by arguing it was an official act? We don't really know; that's an issue. Does this mean Biden can do whatever he wants with no fear of criminal prosecution as long as he calls it an official act? If so, I wonder what he and future presidents will do with it and that is a fair question regardless of your political views. To the conservatives out there, doesn't this give Biden or the next democratic president a blank check to do whatever with no fear of criminal prosecution no matter what if they call it an official act. There does not seem to be a bright line of "this is immune behavior," verses "this is not immune behavior." The "four types" discussion does not really provide an answer does it? Don't you want a man with absolute tons of power to stop and think for a second if something he is about to do is criminal before he does it? What if the criminal thing he does is against you or someone you care about? POTUS can order drone strikes that kill people .... What if he does that .... There's a lot we just don't know with this new rule. Where are the guardrails to keep things from going too far and what is too far? This is new. We don't know....

[Please do not quote]
« Last Edit: July 01, 2024, 10:32:11 am by Truean »
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Great Order

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #165023 on: July 01, 2024, 10:10:04 am »

Given how Trump had a non-zero number of toadies on the SC, I can't say I'm terribly surprised.
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I may have wasted all those years
They're not worth their time in tears
I may have spent too long in darkness
In the warmth of my fears

Truean

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #165024 on: July 01, 2024, 01:31:57 pm »

Never thought I'd read these words from SCOTUS. For those watching from home these are some of the things the other SCOTUS Justices said on the 6-3 side that was in the minority and therefore basically not in the ruling.  I'm just gonna leave this here:

"The majority of my colleagues seems to have put their trust in our Court’s ability to prevent Presidents from becoming Kings through case-by-case application of the indeterminate standards of their new Presidential accountability paradigm. I fear that they are wrong. But, for all our sakes, I hope that they are right.

In the meantime, because the risks (and power) the Court has now assumed are intolerable, unwarranted, and plainly antithetical to bedrock constitutional norms, I dissent.
"

--Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson, dissenting.

"Looking beyond the fate of this particular prosecution, the long-term consequences of today’s decision are stark.

The Court effectively creates a law-free zone around the President, upsetting the status quo that has existed since the Founding. This new official-acts immunity now “lies about like a loaded weapon” for any President that wishes to place his own interests, his own political survival, or his own financial gain, above the interests of the Nation. … The President of the United States is the most powerful person in the country, and possibly the world. When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority’s reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune. Let the President violate the law, let him exploit the trappings of his office for personal gain, let him use his official power for evil ends. Because if he knew that he may one day face liability for breaking the law, he might not be as bold and fearless as we would like him to be. That is the majority’s message today.

Even if these nightmare scenarios never play out, and I pray they never do, the damage has been done. The relationship between the President and the people he serves has shifted irrevocably. In every use of official power, the President is now a king above the law.

Today’s decision to grant former Presidents criminal immunity reshapes the institution of the Presidency. It makes a mockery of the principle, foundational to our Constitution and system of Government, that no man is above the law. Relying on little more than its own misguided wisdom about the need for “bold and unhesitating action” by the President, ante, at 3, 13, the Court gives former President Trump all the immunity he asked for and more. Because our Constitution does not shield a former President from answering for criminal and treasonous acts, I dissent.
"

--Justice Sotomayor, dissenting.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2024, 01:35:58 pm by Truean »
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Egan_BW

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #165025 on: July 01, 2024, 04:39:42 pm »

That doesn't seem great. I'm pretty sure that Rule of Law was a thing for good reason?
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Eric Blank

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #165026 on: July 01, 2024, 05:25:25 pm »

No shit. Nobody should have immunity from prosecution. Especially not people with power.
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I make Spellcrafts!
I have no idea where anything is. I have no idea what anything does. This is not merely a madhouse designed by a madman, but a madhouse designed by many madmen, each with an intense hatred for the previous madman's unique flavour of madness.

Egan_BW

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #165027 on: July 01, 2024, 05:38:44 pm »

Well on the bright side, we already were living in the dystopia where cops are immune, this just crowns the president as the king cop. Which I'm sure is perfectly fine and nothing to worry about.
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heydude6

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #165028 on: July 01, 2024, 05:42:35 pm »

Biden should just order the execution of some political rivals to show the Conservative Supreme Court why this was a terrible idea, he’s fully within his right to. Diplomatic immunity isn’t so nice when your enemies have it too.

/s
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Lets use the ancient naval art of training war parrots. No one will realize they have been boarded by space war parrots until it is to late!
You can fake being able to run on water. You can't fake looking cool when you break your foot on a door and hit your head on the floor.

Truean

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #165029 on: July 01, 2024, 06:08:21 pm »

[Please do not quote]


Even in sarcasm nothing like that is needed, though I get the point. Biden could win the next election by rebuke of SCOTUS....

Step 1: Call press conference on all channels, television, radio, internet live feed, etc.
Step 2: Invite all Supreme Court Justices to this press conference. If they don't come, just show comfortable empty chairs with their names.
Step 3: Declare the Supreme Court's case granting presidential immunity incredibly misguided, despite it benefiting him as President.
Step 4: Attorney General of the U. S. reads an Executive Order forbidding Biden to use this defense (using other defenses already existing is fine).
Step 5: Sign it on National Television / Internet Livefeed as legally binding and as a clearly evidenced campaign promise. Call the video "Exhibit A."
Step 6: Look right at the SCOTUS Justices on camera, saying nothing for 5 seconds of silence. Watch  Sotomayor smile with a stone face.
Step 7: Say direct to camera,

"No one should ever be above the law. Presidents are not kings. That's malarkey. I am no different than any of you. I submit myself to the same Justice System as you. I had a cold at a debate. I got better. My opponent's lack of morals won't get better, but they will get worse. I know right from wrong."

Step 8: Walk off stage. Say nothing, don't look back, let the action speak for you....

Biden should voluntarily abandon the criminal prosecution immunity privilege SCOTUS just granted even if it only applies to him.
Retain POTUS position. Set tradition of Presidents signing the same order. I've done it in corporate board rooms. It could work here.

Action; accountability; skin in the game; refusing the wrong; leading by example. "A government of laws, and not of men." John Adams

Somehow I don't think he will even be presented the option. He should. Whole broadcast would take a couple minutes max.

Edit: He didn't invite the supreme court or sign an executive order but he did say SCOTUS was wrong:
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/watch-live-biden-addresses-supreme-court-ruling-on-presidential-immunity-and-trump

He sounds a lot better without a cold.... IF he would have done THAT type of performance at the debate, it would've been much better. No raspy voice; no cold.... Clear.
"I know I will respect the limits of presidential powers as I have for 3 1/2 years."
He concurred with Justice Sotomayor, and quoted her. He said "I dissent."

[Please do not quote]
« Last Edit: July 01, 2024, 06:55:14 pm by Truean »
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.
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