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Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 14938828 times)

EuchreJack

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #160320 on: July 13, 2022, 05:13:19 pm »

I think this helps. What would help more is some sort of flowchart tracking wealth over the ages.

Also: Parts of China are quite warm. Check my link to see where they fall in all this....

Il Palazzo

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #160321 on: July 13, 2022, 05:15:38 pm »

Random nuclear PSAs have been popping up in my local area and it's got some people spooked.
I'm sure it's nothing though  :P
Does it say to duck and cover?
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EuchreJack

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #160322 on: July 13, 2022, 05:20:52 pm »

Random nuclear PSAs have been popping up in my local area and it's got some people spooked.
I'm sure it's nothing though  :P

Quote
There is No Nuclear Emergency. If you see someone glowing, shoot them and call the authorities.  Tell no one else about it, or you will be subject to incarceration. There is No Nuclear Emergency. If you see someone spreading lies about a Nuclear Emergency, report them immediately to local law enforcement. There is No Nuclear Emergency.

Something like that?  :P

TamerVirus

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #160323 on: July 13, 2022, 07:38:37 pm »

Random nuclear PSAs have been popping up in my local area and it's got some people spooked.
I'm sure it's nothing though  :P
Does it say to duck and cover?
1. Get Inside
2. Stay Inside
3. Stay Tuned
“You got this!”

This is New York City. In any nuclear war scenario this place is gonna be reduced to a smoldering hole in the ground.
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WealthyRadish

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #160324 on: July 13, 2022, 09:05:47 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

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Very few states had any major precious metal influx from the New World. Only Spain did so in huge quantity (the English and Dutch stole a fair bit of this), and the economic effects of that much specie were not good. One of the big contributors that led to Hapsburg Spain being replaced by Bourbon Spain was that massive inflation had gutted the economy.

Inflation was indeed huge throughout Europe (especially after the prior centuries of deflation) but the bulk of the precious metals ended up in China. Ming replaced its currency with enormous amounts of silver coinage that came almost exclusively from the Americas or a few mines in Europe, and in return European merchants received all manner of goods that either ended up in Europe directly or were traded elsewhere for other goods in Asia and Africa. Exporting precious metals was virtually the entire basis of European trade with Asia until the 1800s, but most of the real money in pre-industrial colonialism in Asia came from European merchants taking over inter-Asian trade or the early monopoly companies extracting customs/tariffs from non-European merchants.

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Equally important, the trade networks in question brought great wealth to everyone involved. It wasn't just a matter of "all our gold and silver goes out, spices and silks come in". The crippling effect you're talking about didn't happen.

Medieval Europe is well known for having a very low quantity of precious metals in circulation compared to most other regions and a low volume of trade with other regions. The woolen cloth industry was significant internally, but of little value compared to cheaper and better cotton cloth produced elsewhere, and metals were too expensive in Europe to export either.

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2. Any technology desired could flow along the same trade networks, and Europe wasn't the total technological backwater that people think it was. The biggest difference between Europe and elsewhere is that we don't easily recognize a lot of what they did as technology, because it was improvements of a sort that are invisible to moderns no matter how big they were at the time.

Europe was certainly an economic backwater and technologies originating in China were necessary for early colonialism, but there were some technological areas that early modern Europe led in independently of colonialism. Wind or water powered mills spring to mind, which was a factor I should have listed as important in transitioning to fossil fuel powered machinery.

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The only reason that some places (like the Muslim world) were relatively less violent was that they'd already "progressed" further along that same path. Many areas that would later be subject to colonialism were rich and powerful empires at that time.

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with, but the frequency of warfare is important because it happened at a time when technologies necessary for early colonialism (fortresses defended with artillery and firearms, ships with heavy cannons, siege techniques to capture weak pre-gunpowder forts quickly) were being developed by Europeans for use on each other, with incentives in that context that didn't exist elsewhere.

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4. All medieval fortresses were obsoleted by gunpowder. The most expensive and formidable curtain walls ever built could be (and, IIRC, were) knocked down by cannon with ease. Having slightly thicker walls didn't help a damn - resisting cannonfire required the demolition of the fortifications and replacement with a completely new system.

In medieval Europe, absolutely, but elsewhere it's not just "slightly thicker". City walls in China being 6-8 meters thick or more at the base were commonplace and survived in use until the introduction of high explosive shells in the 20th century, while the typical medieval stone wall in Europe was less than a foot thick. The high and thin mortar-and-stone walls and towers in Europe could be knocked down by primitive heavy cannons, and that sudden vulnerability spurred a chain of developments that included military techniques necessary for pre-industrial colonial powers to hold the small enclaves they captured in Asia and Africa. China had a longer and more developed tradition of using gunpowder weapons, but never independently developed heavy artillery because they had a pre-gunpowder tradition already immune to its use in sieges (Japan's fortifications and many in India were immune as well, in the sense of just knocking down a wall).

The point is that Europe lucked its way onto the ultimately "winning" combination of military technologies necessary for pre-industrial colonialism in ways other places were unlikely to, and it was partially a consequence of their weaker economy that produced walls vulnerable to the eventual introduction of gunpowder in ways other fortifications in richer places weren't.

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1. Meaningless. Mined coal was replacing charcoal everwhere in the early 1100s, not just in China. The only major exceptions were places like some of the Germanies, where careful forest management had ensured a much more reliable source of charcoal.

Charcoal's a bit of a weird thing to bring up, since it isn't comparable to either coal or wood (and coal certainly can't replace it, until introducing coke). Charcoal uses enormous amounts of wood to produce, is difficult to transport (it chips away to dust), and was exclusively used in applications that require a higher burn temperature than wood or raw coal can provide. China used techniques that allowed the use of coal as a flux and fuel in iron production at lower temperatures (but the results are of lower quality) alongside charcoal for more typical bloom smelting (and later only charcoal, no coal).

It's also not a question of whether any coal mining was done at all, it's a question of scale. The coal/iron industry in northern China was huge, and the early modern (not medieval) British coal industry was also huge for the population involved, while coal mining anywhere else was nearly irrelevant in comparison to wood as a fuel.

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2. Only Britain had a near-total deforestation, and that long predated the industrial use of coal. This was because their naval and maritime traditions required huge quantities of lumber to build the ships (which also made the virgin forests of North America extremely valuable). Coal replaced wood in household heating not because of unavailability, but because it is far more energy dense and thus much more practical to transport and stockpile.

This is another one where it doesn't even feel like you're disagreeing, but it should be said that raw coal is strictly inferior to wood for household use. It burns less hotly, less efficiently, produces more smoke, and is more difficult to ignite. People prefer wood, and it takes shortages raising the relative price of wood much higher than coal to create demand for it outside of a few commercial applications where the cooler burning temperature and noxious smoke isn't a problem.

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3. It is true that the need to pump mines dry was the first practical use of the steam engine. However, the notion that "ideas for steam engines were around for thousands of years" is nonsense. That claim is based on the Aeolipile, which did exist. However, the Aeolipile was useless, and it is utterly impossible to adapt it into something that can be used - trying to power anything with it would instantly overwhelm the tiny amount of torque you can get out of it. Experiments in practical use didn't crop up until the late 1600s (a handful of patents exist from a century earlier, but no evidence of any practical experiments has been found), and those were very impractical because getting to useful working pressures would often make the things explode.The mid-18th century devices, and more importantly the 19th century ones, were the first to exist because this was when materials capable of handling them began to exist.

I agree, my hand-waving the other factors in steam machinery was hasty. Perhaps there are 3 limiting factors to adopting the use of early steam engines:
1) Preliminary knowledge sufficient to think to even try it
2) Materials and metalworking techniques capable of withstanding the pressure
3) An application where the fuel use is economical, in particular fossil fuels

It's very reasonable that with Britain's widespread use of watermills they would have figured out an economical use for early steam engines later even if their mines had been entirely dry and the obvious first incentive hadn't presented itself. It's also plausible that China was so lacking in 1) and 2) that they would've never developed it independently, especially without the best initial incentives in mining. I think I framed the mining application as too decisive of a factor; if it was important, it was more as a limiter on China than as an aide to Britain.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #160325 on: July 14, 2022, 12:25:46 am »

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with, but the frequency of warfare is important because it happened at a time when technologies necessary for early colonialism (fortresses defended with artillery and firearms, ships with heavy cannons, siege techniques to capture weak pre-gunpowder forts quickly) were being developed by Europeans for use on each other, with incentives in that context that didn't exist elsewhere.

[/quote]

NONE of those technologies were pioneered by Europeans. The Ottomans in particular excelled at all of them (although their ships were galleys rather than big ocean-going vessels - such ships dominated the Mediterranean for centuries.

Quote

In medieval Europe, absolutely, but elsewhere it's not just "slightly thicker". City walls in China being 6-8 meters thick or more at the base were commonplace and survived in use until the introduction of high explosive shells in the 20th century, while the typical medieval stone wall in Europe was less than a foot thick. The high and thin mortar-and-stone walls and towers in Europe could be knocked down by primitive heavy cannons, and that sudden vulnerability spurred a chain of developments that included military techniques necessary for pre-industrial colonial powers to hold the small enclaves they captured in Asia and Africa. China had a longer and more developed tradition of using gunpowder weapons, but never independently developed heavy artillery because they had a pre-gunpowder tradition already immune to its use in sieges (Japan's fortifications and many in India were immune as well, in the sense of just knocking down a wall).

The point is that Europe lucked its way onto the ultimately "winning" combination of military technologies necessary for pre-industrial colonialism in ways other places were unlikely to, and it was partially a consequence of their weaker economy that produced walls vulnerable to the eventual introduction of gunpowder in ways other fortifications in richer places weren't.
.
The walls of Constantinople were six meters thick, and were almost certainly the most formidable fortifications of the day. Cannonfire broke through them in 1453. You're assuming that the Chinese forts in question were never bombarded because they were invulnerable, but that's not a safe assumption. China wasn't invaded from outside by a gunpowder army in that period, and there were limits beyond purely practical on their own forms of internal warfare.

Meanwhile, everything you credit the Europeans with here is embodied in the term "Gunpowder Empire", which referred to the three great superpowers of the early modern era - the Ottoman Empire, the Safavids of Iran, and the Mughals of India.


Quote

Charcoal's a bit of a weird thing to bring up, since it isn't comparable to either coal or wood (and coal certainly can't replace it, until introducing coke). Charcoal uses enormous amounts of wood to produce, is difficult to transport (it chips away to dust), and was exclusively used in applications that require a higher burn temperature than wood or raw coal can provide. China used techniques that allowed the use of coal as a flux and fuel in iron production at lower temperatures (but the results are of lower quality) alongside charcoal for more typical bloom smelting (and later only charcoal, no coal).

It's also not a question of whether any coal mining was done at all, it's a question of scale. The coal/iron industry in northern China was huge, and the early modern (not medieval) British coal industry was also huge for the population involved, while coal mining anywhere else was nearly irrelevant in comparison to wood as a fuel.

The Chinese invented coking, and are proven to have used it as early as the 300s, and were working metal with it by the 1000s. Europeans wouldn't introduce it until the late 1500s, and were using it extensively by the 1650s. Both of these dates, you will note, are far before the Industrial revolution.

Quote
This is another one where it doesn't even feel like you're disagreeing, but it should be said that raw coal is strictly inferior to wood for household use. It burns less hotly, less efficiently, produces more smoke, and is more difficult to ignite. People prefer wood, and it takes shortages raising the relative price of wood much higher than coal to create demand for it outside of a few commercial applications where the cooler burning temperature and noxious smoke isn't a problem.


I think you're mixing up soft coal with hard here. Everything you say is quite true about crappy coal, but it doesn't apply to hard. With something like anthracite, you get twice as much heat out of a given weight compared to wood, burns cleaner (in the ways that households care about, such as creosote buildup), burns longer, takes much less preparation, and is far more compact due to the density. That's why coal replaced wood (in the 19th century, after cheap stoves became common and lots of coal was being mined for other use) even in places where the latter was extremely common.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #160326 on: July 14, 2022, 03:26:19 am »

Also I don't think there's very much special about Britain being the birthplace of the industrial revolution. Well, special yes, but not special in the sense that it could have only started in Britain. Things like the canal system, commercial culture being honoured instead of held in contempt, the creation of the factory production system, early-modern banking and investment, a restrained ruling class which doesn't just seize wealth at whim, research institutes and universities and urbanisation are all things which other civilisations have had or have had an analogue for in the past, or else rapidly industrialised a century or two later when these institutes were adopted. Britain was just the first; I don't like the material determinism which says Britain had to be the first. For all we know ancient Egypt might've pulled it off had they not been wrecked by the sea peoples, China or Persia might have done it had they not been rendered to the sword in the mongol conquests, or some other island nation like Japan or Java had they reached the right conditions first

MaxTheFox

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #160327 on: July 14, 2022, 04:44:14 am »

Temperatures like those make me die inside.
Here in Siberia we get -30C in Winter and +30C in summer. Le continental. And people think it's all cold.

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« Last Edit: July 14, 2022, 04:46:27 am by MaxTheFox »
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delphonso

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #160328 on: July 14, 2022, 07:53:05 am »

Also I don't think there's very much special about Britain being the birthplace of the industrial revolution. Well, special yes, but not special in the sense that it could have only started in Britain. Things like the canal system, commercial culture being honoured instead of held in contempt, the creation of the factory production system, early-modern banking and investment, a restrained ruling class which doesn't just seize wealth at whim, research institutes and universities and urbanisation are all things which other civilisations have had or have had an analogue for in the past, or else rapidly industrialised a century or two later when these institutes were adopted. Britain was just the first; I don't like the material determinism which says Britain had to be the first. For all we know ancient Egypt might've pulled it off had they not been wrecked by the sea peoples, China or Persia might have done it had they not been rendered to the sword in the mongol conquests, or some other island nation like Japan or Java had they reached the right conditions first

A Roman built a small steam engine /as a novelty/ and just didn't put it together that it could have done work. This was, if I recall, in the 1st century.

MaxTheFox

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #160329 on: July 14, 2022, 09:00:14 am »

Also, to be entirely honest, China and Persia recovered from the Mongol conquests by the time of the Industrial Revolution. There were mostly social factors preventing them from industrializing.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #160330 on: July 14, 2022, 10:27:34 am »

A Roman built a small steam engine /as a novelty/ and just didn't put it together that it could have done work. This was, if I recall, in the 1st century.
Oh yeah Hero's engine
The only trouble with it is that Hero's engine is not scalable and doesn't really do anything useful as a mechanical power source. However it is worth noting that the industrial revolution in Britain didn't even start with steam power, much like railways started long before trains existed. Roman use of waterwheels to power saws to cut huge blocks of marble ashlar do make me wonder what the Romans would've done if they had discovered proper steam power

Also, to be entirely honest, China and Persia recovered from the Mongol conquests by the time of the Industrial Revolution. There were mostly social factors preventing them from industrializing.
Yeah but the death of your scholars and the burning of your libraries isn't something which you can recover, even if you've recovered from the actual conquest

Grim Portent

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #160331 on: July 14, 2022, 10:48:55 am »

Idly ruminating on the subject of my mother's dog.

A little while ago she asked if I would be willing to take care of him if she and my father went on holiday. I said no, he'd be better off in a kennel than with me. She tried to guilt trip me into feeling bad about that.

I really don't understand why she seems to think I like him. I spend most of my time trying to avoid him and don't take part in efforts to care for him. Hell, I've even said to her in the past that if Bertie was left with me as his owner I'd give him to the SSPCA within the day, which she seemed to find upsetting for some reason.

Is this what emotional gaslighting is? Maybe not, but it's confusing, annoying and I hate it.
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hector13

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #160332 on: July 14, 2022, 11:07:42 am »

Well the dog is part of the family to your mum, and you’re her child and this are supposed to do anything for her.

Something like that anyway, probably. My mother-in-law does similar stuff with my wife, but in the guise of helping us out even when she is told very specifically that if she’s visiting, we don’t need to do whatever it is she thinks needs doing, but we have to do it anyway.
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nenjin

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #160333 on: July 14, 2022, 11:42:12 am »

Idly ruminating on the subject of my mother's dog.

A little while ago she asked if I would be willing to take care of him if she and my father went on holiday. I said no, he'd be better off in a kennel than with me. She tried to guilt trip me into feeling bad about that.

I really don't understand why she seems to think I like him. I spend most of my time trying to avoid him and don't take part in efforts to care for him. Hell, I've even said to her in the past that if Bertie was left with me as his owner I'd give him to the SSPCA within the day, which she seemed to find upsetting for some reason.

Is this what emotional gaslighting is? Maybe not, but it's confusing, annoying and I hate it.

Is Bertie just not a great dog or are you not really an animal person? Seems like you have some real antipathy toward that dog.
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EuchreJack

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #160334 on: July 14, 2022, 12:02:53 pm »

Idly ruminating on the subject of my mother's dog.

A little while ago she asked if I would be willing to take care of him if she and my father went on holiday. I said no, he'd be better off in a kennel than with me. She tried to guilt trip me into feeling bad about that.

I really don't understand why she seems to think I like him. I spend most of my time trying to avoid him and don't take part in efforts to care for him. Hell, I've even said to her in the past that if Bertie was left with me as his owner I'd give him to the SSPCA within the day, which she seemed to find upsetting for some reason.

Is this what emotional gaslighting is? Maybe not, but it's confusing, annoying and I hate it.

Is Bertie just not a great dog or are you not really an animal person? Seems like you have some real antipathy toward that dog.
Parents love all their children and expect their children to love one another.
Yes, the dog is her child too.

There is also the logical fallacy that people have about their friends. The fallacy is that if I like Doug and Jim, then I believe Doug and Jim like each other because I like them both. People tend to believe this unless presented with evidence that their two friends actually hate each other on a regular basis.

Regarding the dog particularly: If you are inclined to feed the dog, provide it water, and not hurt it... you're a better dog owner than some people. Eh, taking care of things is emotionally healthy for a person, even if a chore.
Also: Sounds to me like your mother is cheap. Try asking for money to take care of the dog. She'll either change the subject or you might find it more palatable with some financial reward attached.

I just got done taking care of the family dog, hence why I'm advocating it.
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