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Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 14926423 times)

Frumple

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159255 on: January 25, 2022, 02:54:25 pm »

Their crap's already been kicked over at least once for trying to dictate rules regarding internet content and whatnot. It's pretty unlikely they'll manage to stick anything meaningful on that front, at least.
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EuchreJack

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159256 on: January 25, 2022, 04:46:01 pm »

What good is a legislature if they can't pass unconstitutional laws?  :P

The problem, of course, is that the teacher will be fired for violating the law.  ONE teacher will eventually sue the crap out of the school district, and 5 years later might get some back pay.  The rest will be working in the restaurant industry with their Masters Degrees.

There is another issue: Schools are generally regulated by the States, although they have to comply with Federal guidance if they want their funding.
Thankfully, the State government has to comply with Federal guidance if they want their schools to keep receiving Federal funds.  That might kill the bill.

Vector

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159257 on: January 25, 2022, 11:44:57 pm »

There were all kinds of things that I wasn't allowed to have an opinion on as a classroom teacher. You learn to talk about them sideways.

For example, I would greet the students sometimes with a thing like "hello robots, aliens, and proud defiers of the robot-alien binary." Or like, "hello squids, cucumbers, and everyone inbetween." It just sounds like silly, surrealist, "Miss Frizzle" humor and if anyone tried to put it in my firing paperwork they would sound insane. But you could figure out exactly what I meant.


I would respond to that kid's question about marriage with something like "that's a very interesting topic." and a few seconds of silence. Or, "hmm, where is the show set?" and if I get a response, just say "Oh, very interesting."

My students learned that was code for "I'll get fired if I talk about it, but go educate yourself."
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wierd

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159258 on: January 26, 2022, 05:30:16 am »

At the risk of sounding like a dead horse beater, you've got two problems- people that insist that demeaning a protected group of people/minority/The Other is their God-given right and corporations that understand that people are expendable and that liability reduces profits. The latter tolerate the former because the former support elected officials that will reduce corporate liability/taxes/regulations/etc and will do their best not to offend the former. They'll flip the script when it's fiscally/socially advantageous to pantomime support for whatever group/minority/social ideal (and there might really be some merit to the rote inclusivity/diversity training if inclusion actually makes it into the collective unconscience) and will do just enough lip-service to put on a good public image without supporting real social change. The exception here is probably where social change IS the public image (GamesDoneQuick springs to mind), but then the uncomfortable verbal goose-stepping you're afraid of there comes from retaliation from message deletion and collateral damage from people who are actively trying to be agitators/actively malicious.

The onus is on the speaker to protect profits and the status quo. Blame capitalism for this social issue.

I think it might be more pathological than that, on several fronts.

On the first one, you have employers that just want the problem to go away. Really, that is all they want.  They look at the mandatory inclusivity training (which is offensive and demeaning to somebody that is already inclusive, and was instead just fudge-smeared because of a misunderstanding, but the situation cannot resolve naturally because of problem 2 below) as a quick and easy solution to absolve themselves of any onus or responsibility. So, they use it that way, which is inappropriate.

On the next, you have people who are suffering from "straw that broke the camel's back" syndrome, that are literally exhausted from, and have no further reserve for, any perceived slight against their person/status. They are tired of correcting for incorrect pronouns. They are tired of people hitting on them. They are tired of X.  AND SOMEBODY JUST DID X. (or, more often, somebody did Y, but BY GOD, IT SOUNDED LIKE X! THERE WILL BE BLOOD!)  They are this way because of item 3 below, but the fact remains that they have no reserve left to deal with the false positives, and the false positives happen sufficiently often that it makes life a living hell for other people, because of how conditioned to pick up on the abuse they have become, and how easy it is to set off the nuclear firestorm as a result.

And finally, you have the "Wont change for nobody, No how!" types, who pine for the days when they could grab female staff by the ass, when they could beat up "they gays" and "The nerds", (and quite frequently, the spouse at home) and generally act belligerently toward anyone outside of their scope of "normal, right, and proper".  (If they are male, they tend to feel that women should stay at home, cook, clean, and be their personal fuck slave--- and if they are female, tend to think that men should be strong, commanding, and should defend their honor, and other nonsense. ) No amount of inclusivity training is going to fix this about them-- They feel offended that the world has changed away from what they found right and proper, and they relish every opportunity to be belligerent asses about it.

Overarching all three, you have federal and state legislatures that are made up of people so conditioned to bending to how the wind blows that they never progress society away from the awkward transitional mess it finds itself in right now, and have left it to flounder since the 60s.


The drive to remove all instances of the trigger from the people pushed to the edge by the assholes, results in an endless and eternal deathmarch of both social policy and language itself, toward ever greater degrees of absurdity.  There is an endless rinse-and-repeat cycle where a word gets smeared with group 3's negativity, gets used by group 3 (because they relish every opportunity to be assholes that way), which then corrupts the word, the word becomes taboo, group 2 blows up whenever it gets used (BECAUSE ITS X!!!), not matter what the context might actually be, and much like the employers who just want the problem to go away as easily and unmessily as possible, society just says "Ok, We cant use that word anymore, so lets just do THIS easy thing instead!" (which in the case of language, and word use, is just substituting another innocent word on the altar to get corrupted, taboo'ed and sacrificed-- rather than dealing with the real problem-- People of group 3-- because that is HARD.)

Consider:  The progression from "Slow" -> "Retarded", -> "Special", -> to now "Special Needs", as it relates to children with learning disabilities.  That's just within my own lifetime. 

The attempt to "TABOO IT AND IT WILL GO AWAY!" a word, never actually removes the causal use of that word. It just creates a vaccum in the language where the word used to be, that gets filled very quickly with the new, sacrificial word, which then falls victim to the same cycle.  Tabooing a word is easy, and thus is the path everyone always takes, in their effort to "Never offend anyone!"

The healthy and proper solution, is the social compromise:

Keep the current negative word.  Let group 3 out themselves at every opportunity.  Let them fully and completely demonstrate themselves, so that people using other words arent wrongly implicated by accident.  Accept that most people are not people from group 3, and as such, most interactions you have will not be with persons from group 3.  Accept this, and take it to heart; If something SEEMS like it is one thing, very carefully follow through in establishing that it is in fact that thing, before going off the rails.  Accept the fact that people can push your button on accident, and not mean to, and that most of the times your button gets pushed, it is from that.  (which is why clearly demarcating people in group 3, as group 3, is necessary, so that they can be unambiguously identified.)  Due to this acceptance, accept that you cannot live your life without ever being offended, or without ever offending anyone.  Instead, be courteous and accepting/accomodating when that happens, and work together for a better future.

That is not the path that society is taking though.

Society is taking the path of "Oh, you POOR DEAR THING--- You SHOULD have the **RIGHT** to never be offended!"

and then it crafts rules that lead to very strange places, like we are finding today.  Those rules, with that intention, invariably lead to those strange places, because the objective is not achievable.

Instead, the path society should be taking is:

"Are you a belligerent asshole that gets off on hurting other people?  There's a place for you.  Prison."  with a copious dose of "Verify quite surely, that this person is indeed that thing, before you put them there."
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MaxTheFox

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159259 on: January 26, 2022, 07:03:59 am »

Quote
It's the intent, not the particular gesture or syllables.

A dangerous opinion to have for an adult, legally speaking  :o

Legally dangerous, maybe. But societally correct.

Meaning of gestures and of words changes. What was a perfectly fine statement 100 years ago, might now be offensive. Hell, even 20 years ago. What should matter is whether you are doing it to harm another, or because it is the word/gesture with the closest meaning.

I'll give you a few example from my czech.
"Cigán" and "Rom" both mean Gypsi (male). "Cigán" used to be the default word, but is now considered offensive. Yet older people still use it, just because they are used to it.
"Slepı" and "nevidomı" both mean "blind person (male)". But for some reason, "slepı" is now considered impolite, even though it has exactly the same meaning as the newer "nevidomı".

And something from english.
Some youtubers started using "unalive" instead of "die", to prevent demonetization. How long till "die" becomes taboo, and we are expected to use "unalive"?
In Russian, we still use "slepoy". "Nevidimy" means "invisible". :P
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McTraveller

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159260 on: January 26, 2022, 08:03:50 am »

More evidence that YouTube is really about destroying society  ;D - "unalive" isn't even accurate (do they mean - "became nonliving"?), and it's doubly problematic because we already had "nonliving" and didn't need the cumbersome "unalive."

Anyway, I'm still trying to figure out how to get wierd elected to office or otherwise make wields posts mandatory reading in schools. Always focusing on the core problems, not the symptoms, and generally speaking truth.  Even when I don't personally like it, I've not found anything yet that doesn't jive with reality... because it's not about sentiment.
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TD1

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159261 on: January 26, 2022, 08:37:25 am »

Keep the current negative word.  Let group 3 out themselves at every opportunity.  Let them fully and completely demonstrate themselves, so that people using other words arent wrongly implicated by accident.  Accept that most people are not people from group 3, and as such, most interactions you have will not be with persons from group 3.  Accept this, and take it to heart; If something SEEMS like it is one thing, very carefully follow through in establishing that it is in fact that thing, before going off the rails.  Accept the fact that people can push your button on accident, and not mean to, and that most of the times your button gets pushed, it is from that.  (which is why clearly demarcating people in group 3, as group 3, is necessary, so that they can be unambiguously identified.)  Due to this acceptance, accept that you cannot live your life without ever being offended, or without ever offending anyone.  Instead, be courteous and accepting/accomodating when that happens, and work together for a better future.

That is not the path that society is taking though.

Society is taking the path of "Oh, you POOR DEAR THING--- You SHOULD have the **RIGHT** to never be offended!"

Hear, hear.

I've also found it interesting how 'offense' is treated, anyway. It seems certain buttons are prioritised as somehow more worthy of legal reaction/calumny, but no legislative line has been drawn.

Pronouns is one we were warned about. Use the wrong pronoun by accident/ignorance and jeopordise your job.

But what if I hear someone's accent and think they're French, then bring it up only to offend them? Apparently they're Swiss and how could I think otherwise.

It's exactly the same thing, with the same results, but I doubt my job would be in any danger.
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McTraveller

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159262 on: January 26, 2022, 08:46:51 am »

Just wait until people really do colonize Mars, we'll get another whole new class distinction to abuse!  ::)
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scriver

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159263 on: January 26, 2022, 09:29:13 am »

I'm so looking forward to stellar body shaming
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None

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159264 on: January 26, 2022, 09:53:40 am »

Instead, the path society should be taking is:

"Are you a belligerent asshole that gets off on hurting other people?  There's a place for you.  Prison."  with a copious dose of "Verify quite surely, that this person is indeed that thing, before you put them there."

oh, okay, this'll get abused
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wierd

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159265 on: January 26, 2022, 01:51:23 pm »

No matter what action you choose to take, it will be abused.

Try to convince people to stop using abusive language through using taboo? (like current policies favor)  --> New words take on old meaning. Abused.
Focus exclusively on zero tolerance for people who cause emotional trauma? (like current policies favor) --> Innocent people caught in the crossfire regularly. Abused.
Focus on repeat offenders, and incarcerate them after thorough investigation? --> Political games by politicians and abusive interest groups pervert the definition of "offender", and pervert the investigation criteria. Abused.

The reason it will become abused, is that somebody, somewhere in the system, has a vested interest in causing or creating that abuse. The only real solution to that is systemic policing, and aggressively so, by the rest of the society.

If you are looking for a suggestion that makes everyone happy, all of the time, with no risk for being abused, you are going to be searching in futility.  No such solution exists.  Humanity has warts. Societies made from humans, have warts.
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martinuzz

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159266 on: January 26, 2022, 02:12:00 pm »

A Dutch woman died after having a 'Brasilian Butt Lift' in Istanbul.

Don't know whether my WTF is that you can die from plastic butt surgery, or that it made front page news in the Volkskrant.
I guess it's good to warn people about the dangers of liking big butts.
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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159267 on: January 26, 2022, 02:38:48 pm »

The reason it will become abused, is that somebody, somewhere in the system, has a vested interest in causing or creating that abuse. The only real solution to that is systemic policing, and aggressively so, by the rest of the society.
Let's maybe not leverage the arm of the judiciary system that has a vested interest in incarcerating people for profit and suppressing ideological dissidents/minorities as the conclusive, acceptable level of abuse.

Isn't 'taboo' a systemic cultural policing?
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wierd

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159268 on: January 26, 2022, 02:49:22 pm »

Its an impotent one, (against the people it targets), that causes lots of splash damage to culture, language, and innocent bystanders.

The people being discussed are unremorseful, and unrepentant. The concept of a taboo means nothing to them; in fact, they thrive on it existing.

The people hurt by the taboo, are the ones who wish to avoid it.


What I meant by systemic enforcement by the public, is holding public officials accountable. 
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EuchreJack

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #159269 on: January 26, 2022, 03:40:56 pm »

I wonder if part of the problem is not so much that we're trying to protect everyone from being offended, but that we simply don't tolerate honest emotions in general. Maybe if people felt they could be honestly pissed off for a few days, it would help immensely.
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