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Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 14888230 times)

Rolan7

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151770 on: June 07, 2020, 01:08:06 pm »

I'm not actually familiar with the trope and didn't play Chrono Cross yet, but sounds like a straightforward way to set characters apart from each other.  Chrono Trigger did something like that, with the cavewoman not understanding pronouns and the medieval frog saying "tis" a lot.  Maybe Cross and other RPGs went more overboard with it.
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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151771 on: June 07, 2020, 01:15:31 pm »

Looked it up:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/ps/196917-chrono-cross/faqs/37862
Quote
Richard Honeywood:
   I work at SQUARE in Tokyo where I "live" with the Chrono Cross team. I was the Localization Director, the Localization Programmer, and one of the translators. One interesting feature of this game is its automatic accent generation ability. Without this system all the text for the 43 main characters wouldn't have fit into the game, making an English version impossible! I created an English auto-accent system where we could just write the plain translation and leave it up to the program to convert it real-time into the "voice" of whoever's speaking at the time. So I am also responsible for all those funny speech impediments that we're sure drove you crazy! But I bet you never realized they were auto-generated, right? Anyway, see you later, Serge!

It seems like this guy invented it as an automatic spelling changer basically so they could fit the whole thing on the cartridge but still give each character their own unique way of speaking.

Bumber

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151772 on: June 07, 2020, 02:08:44 pm »

Dizzy Channel was around in the 80s, contemporaneous with the height of VHS.

The difference, is that not everyone had cable, and it was normal to not have cable.

As a premium channel, it was not part of basic cable-- so, it was quite likely that most kids would not have Dizzy Channel, even with households that had cable.

DVD players didn't start being sold in the US until 1997. Buying a DVD player is an expense, so not everybody upgraded right away.

I don't think my family bought one until at least the 2000s. Dizzy Channel and old Dizzy VHS. Snow White, Oliver & Company, et al.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 02:12:24 pm by Bumber »
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Rolan7

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151773 on: June 07, 2020, 02:17:45 pm »

Looked it up:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/ps/196917-chrono-cross/faqs/37862
Quote
Richard Honeywood:
   I work at SQUARE in Tokyo where I "live" with the Chrono Cross team. I was the Localization Director, the Localization Programmer, and one of the translators. One interesting feature of this game is its automatic accent generation ability. Without this system all the text for the 43 main characters wouldn't have fit into the game, making an English version impossible! I created an English auto-accent system where we could just write the plain translation and leave it up to the program to convert it real-time into the "voice" of whoever's speaking at the time. So I am also responsible for all those funny speech impediments that we're sure drove you crazy! But I bet you never realized they were auto-generated, right? Anyway, see you later, Serge!

It seems like this guy invented it as an automatic spelling changer basically so they could fit the whole thing on the cartridge but still give each character their own unique way of speaking.
That's remarkable considering it was a playstation game, ie it had a full CD of space to fill! Space was still often very tight on CDs, but that must be a looot of text even for a jpeg!

Also vaguely disappointing since Chrono Trigger's characters had completely different lines for the various cutscenes (depending on who you brought). Cross has a larger cast, but maybe less uniqueness... Of course I shouldn't judge what I haven't played.
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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151774 on: June 07, 2020, 02:45:26 pm »

It might have been an issue with the English translation specifically. Actually, here's another source with an interview explaining it in more detail:

https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/January_2011_-_GameSpite_Interview_with_Richard_Honeywood.html

Quote
Q: Did you have any involvement in the dialogue system employed in Chrono Cross, which would take a line of dialogue and spit it out differently based on which character was in the party? What was it like writing for such a diverse cast?

A: I actually created the English auto-accent generation system and programmed it as a stand-alone tool (for checking purposes) before handing the code over to the CC dev team to implement in the game itself.

The Japanese version had over 40 different accents that were mainly created by changing the verb endings and adding a few different ways of referring to the main character. It is relatively easy to pull off in Japanese. But in English, we had a serious problem. Either translate the game with no variation between characters at all, or somehow cram in 40+ different characterizations. We didn’t have the time or the PS memory to retranslate the same line up to 40 times for each character, so I took a stab at a system that would try to change the text real time into differing accents or speech patterns to match the colorful array of characters that made up the cast of the game.

pisskop

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151775 on: June 07, 2020, 02:48:18 pm »

Its actually pretty remarkable.

I guess chrono cross was the first real stab at englishizing it?
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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151776 on: June 07, 2020, 05:19:21 pm »

Probably not? Chrono Cross just had a stupidly large cast of playable characters, so it had more of an issue with that sort of thing than more constrained games did.

It's not the only PS1 era game with huge cast lists (sup suikoden), but it probably had other considerations to work with, too (being 3d, for one).
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 05:21:28 pm by Frumple »
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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151777 on: June 07, 2020, 05:54:40 pm »

Text has always been an RPG bottleneck because it takes up a ton of bytes (many CRPGs up through the early 90s shipped with a big chunk of the text in a printed binder of "paragraphs" instead of on disk, for example), and Japanese-to-English translations get hit ultra-hard by it because of the differences between the two languages.


Japanese has a very large alphabet, while English has a very small one. However, Japanese words are often much more compact in terms of number of characters, which saves a lot of memory. So, as long as you have enough text to outweigh the much larger alphabet, the same amount of Japanese text takes up a lot less space than the English equivalent. The real reason that the original FF II, III, and V didn't make it to the US, for example, was that they didn't think enough people would buy the extra-expensive carts (storing all the text needed more memory, and a proper English translation would need even more - there's a newer fan translation of III that is too big to fit on most SNES carts) needed to justify the cost of translation. So it makes a lot of sense that anything that balloons the text requirements would tax even a CD-based title.
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MrRoboto75

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151778 on: June 07, 2020, 06:25:59 pm »

Some speedruns are played in Japanese, as the text is shorter and you save time going through less text boxes.
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Reelya

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151779 on: June 07, 2020, 06:40:10 pm »

Probably not? Chrono Cross just had a stupidly large cast of playable characters, so it had more of an issue with that sort of thing than more constrained games did.

It's not the only PS1 era game with huge cast lists (sup suikoden), but it probably had other considerations to work with, too (being 3d, for one).

Yeah, I think it's just that they came up with the word-endings trick in the Japanese one to make the ~43 characters dialogue feel different, so the English localizer just had to come up with a trick that replicated how they did that. For the Japanese version it would totally have been because then they can reuse dialogue without taking up more space. It was a form of procedural generation basically. The English localizer just had to jump through more hoops to make the same idea work for English, since the Japanese verbs they used for this are a lot more regular, so easy to change the endings.

Text has always been an RPG bottleneck because it takes up a ton of bytes (many CRPGs up through the early 90s shipped with a big chunk of the text in a printed binder of "paragraphs" instead of on disk, for example), and Japanese-to-English translations get hit ultra-hard by it because of the differences between the two languages.


Japanese has a very large alphabet, while English has a very small one. However, Japanese words are often much more compact in terms of number of characters, which saves a lot of memory. So, as long as you have enough text to outweigh the much larger alphabet, the same amount of Japanese text takes up a lot less space than the English equivalent. The real reason that the original FF II, III, and V didn't make it to the US, for example, was that they didn't think enough people would buy the extra-expensive carts (storing all the text needed more memory, and a proper English translation would need even more - there's a newer fan translation of III that is too big to fit on most SNES carts) needed to justify the cost of translation. So it makes a lot of sense that anything that balloons the text requirements would tax even a CD-based title.

Yeah there are a few reasons you could make it *really* compact on a disc for Japanese.

You need about 140 characters for the Hiragana and Katakana, so say you allocate 0-155 to those, that fits all the normal letters plus some punctuation into one byte, but then you can say that if the machine reads a code of 156-255, the top 100 values, then it reads the next byte as well, combines the codes and interprets that as a Kanji, so you could fit in 25500 Kanji as well, which is way more than you'd ever need - or you could use those codes to be shorthand for longer Japanese words in general, since there's no way in hell you actually need 25000 Kanji in the game. So normal symbols take 1 byte and Kanji/long word take 2 bytes (the same space as just writing the English word "a" and a space - Japanese doesn't use spaces), and Kanji can express entire concepts in one symbol. Also note that Hiragana/Katakana are usually equivalent to two letters in English, so か is "ka", so you already got that down to half the data space for that syllable because of how Japanese works vs ASCII.

You can do similar things to compress English text however Japanese just lends itself to that sort of thing much more naturally.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 07:02:24 pm by Reelya »
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Yoink

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151780 on: June 08, 2020, 12:50:59 am »

A friend of mine, whose girlfriend I am also friends with (I've known them both for the same length of time IIRC), just posted a rather exceedingly bitter sounding breakup post on social media, indirectly describing said girlfriend as a "fucken parasite". o____o   
Now, we're not that close and I don't know either of them particularly well or anything so wtf would I know about their relationship, but this is still kind of a shock. Sounds like it was a pretty rough break-up indeed. I wonder what kind of effect this is gonna have on the circle of mutual friends they shared, y'know, such as myself and various people I only really interacted with in their company. Or the band they're both in, for that matter, haha.   

Funnily enough, I actually met these two through a good mutual friend* who has since cut the both of them off. It was already awkward enough maintaining friendships in the same social circles with both parties! I'm not really used to drama amongst my friends, so when there is some I tend to be both horrified and fascinated by it.   



* said friend was actually also in the same band. Perhaps the band itself is cursed. Maybe the music they make is just so angry and full of rage that one can't help but come to loathe their own bandmates. Who knows.   
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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151782 on: June 08, 2020, 05:57:44 am »

Again with the kindergarten stabbings?

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151783 on: June 08, 2020, 06:56:37 am »

Must've been hell of a vicious toddler
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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #151784 on: June 08, 2020, 06:58:53 am »

A 50-year-old according to the news post.

And they must have been incompetent. 39 wounded, only one seriously and no deaths? I would expect worse.
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