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Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 14558144 times)

Arx

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #139950 on: November 10, 2018, 12:39:25 pm »

I have been following the last three pages, what are you guys even debating about? The hell has zombies to do with morality? Is the shadow realm the one that gives extra attack points to magicians?
I mentioned something on how to correctly pronounce Cthulu (Something like KTGHLGH spoken somewhere between a hiss, a growl, and bark, and as if you’re speaking Welsh), and they managed to move from that to a polite and orderly discussion on the finer details of a Civilization which appeared in another of Lovecraft’s books, and whether or not their ethics are justified, work, or maybe... Well, I have no idea. They’re just poking holes in each other’s arguments now with no real goal in mind, as far as I can tell.

Phil Swift here

and some things I forgot

you verbal spar like a cow!

How appropriate! You verbal spar like a dairy far- wait that isn't how this is supposed to go

Also I make no assertions as to the morality of recycled labour.
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wierd

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #139951 on: November 10, 2018, 12:47:03 pm »

Arx, you want to discuss what is in the text, here we go.


Your assertion about the underclass being animals is sorta right, but also wrong.  By the time the spaniard gets there, they have already adopted high technology and no longer need slaves. They instead stratified into upper class, and lower class-- as per this excerpt.

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The ruling type itself had become highly superior through selective breeding and social evolution—the nation having passed through a period of idealistic industrial democracy which gave equal opportunities to all, and thus, by raising the naturally intelligent to power, drained the masses of all their brains and stamina.

In other words, ideocracy happened.  This is still very liberal in nature, as stated in the damn quote.  After that period in their history, people reverted back down to using their slave cattle again, by which time the slave cattle had totally acclimated to their role as livestock, but there is still a definitive underclass of true k'yan society. More is expounded later in the same page. (see below)

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Industry, being found fundamentally futile except for the supplying of basic needs and the gratification of inescapable yearnings, had become very simple. Physical comfort was ensured by an urban mechanisation of standardised and easily maintained pattern, and other elemental needs were supplied by scientific agriculture and stock-raising. Long travel was abandoned, and people went back to using the horned, half-human beasts instead of maintaining the profusion of gold, silver, and steel transportation machines which had once threaded land, water, and air. Zamacona could scarcely believe that such things had ever existed outside dreams, but was told he could see specimens of them in museums. He could also see the ruins of other vast magical devices by travelling a day’s journey to the valley of Do-Hna, to which the race had spread during its period of greatest numbers. The cities and temples of this present plain were of a far more archaic period, and had never been other than religious and antiquarian shrines during the supremacy of the men of Tsath.

Basically, lovecraft is outright saying "They tried to be equal, it did not work out. Idiocracy happened, and they got a 1% in charge of everything, and everyone lives in the city. Most of the technology was abandoned by the common people as they became too dumb/uneducated to use and maintain it. These dumb people became the slaves mentioned later.

In terms of government, he writes this

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In government, Tsath was a kind of communistic or semi-anarchical state; habit rather than law determining the daily order of things. This was made possible by the age-old experience and paralysing ennui of the race, whose wants and needs were limited to physical fundamentals and to new sensations. An aeon-long tolerance not yet undermined by growing reaction had abolished all illusions of values and principles, and nothing but an approximation to custom was ever sought or expected. To see that the mutual encroachments of pleasure-seeking never crippled the mass life of the community—this was all that was desired.

EG, they are so tolerant of everything, that even extreme S&M is considered normal, just as long as the excesses of such pleasure seeking dont threaten the common social stability.   "New sensations" can (and likely does) imply that they LIKE being abused, as much as abusing-- the only limit being to engaging to the point of harming society as a whole through death, or uncorrectable material harm.  EG, serial killers are likely not tolerated, but pulling out toe-nails probably is. There's probably also a demographic that likes having its toe nails pulled out to service them.

Your assertion that there is no distinction between the animals and the underclass is also wrong.

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Family organisation had long ago perished, and the civil and social distinction of the sexes had disappeared. Daily life was organised in ceremonial patterns; with games, intoxication, torture of slaves, day-dreaming, gastronomic and emotional orgies, religious exercises, exotic experiments, artistic and philosophical discussions, and the like, as the principal occupations. Property—chiefly land, slaves, animals, shares in the common city enterprise of Tsath, and ingots of magnetic Tulu-metal, the former universal money standard—was allocated on a very complex basis which included a certain amount equally divided among all the freemen.

There is a clear distinction here in social heirarchy.  Otherwise, there would be no reason to mention "Freemen" at all, nor to draw a distinction between the man-cattle, and the slaves.


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Dunamisdeos

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #139952 on: November 10, 2018, 12:49:04 pm »

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #139953 on: November 10, 2018, 12:50:58 pm »

How appropriate! You verbal spar like a dairy far- wait that isn't how this is supposed to go
Also I make no assertions as to the morality of recycled labour.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #139954 on: November 10, 2018, 12:56:48 pm »

Not sure if you guys are aware of the glorious pun-filled wonderland of silly footnotes that is the Transformers wiki.

For instance

Quote from: From the entry on Mark Twain
In the real world, Mark Twain did not know Jules Verne personally. However, he also never had the distinction of fighting a giant mechanical cat from space, [citation needed] so make what you will of the story.
Quote from: Wait what
[citation needed]
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Arx

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #139955 on: November 10, 2018, 01:16:54 pm »

Okay, we have established the existence of a slightly-less-than-top-level class. Nice job. Would you like to expand on how this justifies their oppression by the upper class? Like, seriously, when you say things like

Basically, lovecraft is outright saying "They tried to be equal, it did not work out. Idiocracy happened, and they got a 1% in charge of everything, and everyone lives in the city. Most of the technology was abandoned by the common people as they became too dumb/uneducated to use and maintain it. These dumb people became the slaves mentioned later.

you make me question whether you still think they're "really not that bad". When you say "clearly there must have been slaves for them to have been tortured, and they were definitely worse off than the middle class!" you kinda precisely make my point about K'n-yan society being horrific.
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TD1

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #139956 on: November 10, 2018, 01:23:08 pm »

To us, it surely is.

I won't pretend to any knowledge beyond what I read on this page, but it seems that they themselves were too passive/content with their own basic met desires to care.
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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #139957 on: November 10, 2018, 01:26:07 pm »

The rulers are conservative, but the main population clearly is not. Compare, the protag is a black man. He is treated as an equal by the lay people of the mound. Compare, black people in the company of white conservatives.

 
If you're talking about "The Mound", neither the narrator nor  the writer of the manuscript are black. I'm guessing it stilm counts as xenophilia for accepting a total outsider though

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wierd

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #139958 on: November 10, 2018, 01:49:40 pm »

The horror of their culture is intentionally a jab at hyper-liberalism, and how hyper-tolerance of personal preference and pleasure is bad.

Their culture would not have any problem with LGBT(other) gender or sexual identities-- it would embrace them, and want to experience them all.  It has no problems with odd political views, as long as they do not endanger the state. Etc.

To them, the torture of slaves is no different than cock-fighting, or other low-brow forms of public entertainment and spectacle-- in fact, it is strongly implied that their intellectual faculties are at once deteriorating from lack of stimulus, and also having reached max saturation in the sciences in the past. (EG, they hit upon the real nature of reality, and then-- whoop, we ran out of stuff to study. What do we do now? Guess we have to start doing away with ethics in order to keep satisfying our curiosity.) As such, low-brow entertainment is the most creative venue available. Compare with the horrible drek we have on daytime TV, and the depravity that people put themselves through.

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Science had been profound and accurate, and all-embracing save in the one direction of astronomy. Of late, however, it was falling into decay, as people found it increasingly useless to tax their minds by recalling its maddening infinitude of details and ramifications. It was thought more sensible to abandon the deepest speculations and to confine philosophy to conventional forms. Technology, of course, could be carried on by rule of thumb. History was more and more neglected, but exact and copious chronicles of the past existed in the libraries. It was still an interesting subject, and there would be a vast number to rejoice at the fresh outer-world knowledge brought in by Zamacona. In general, though, the modern tendency was to feel rather than to think; so that men were now more highly esteemed for inventing new diversions than for preserving old facts or pushing back the frontier of cosmic mystery.

Essentially, they were themselves degenerating into becoming more and more like their slave caste, because the intellectuals had stopped being intellectual-- there was nothing left to really discuss.

I would not be at all surprised if the origin of the Colosseum mentioned, started as Reality TV's analog, as the age of idiocracy unfolded, and that now it was the mainstay staple of entertainment as the culture continued to slide into intellectual oblivion.

The important take away here, is that the subhumans were natural evolutions, not really the result of purposeful directed selection.  The more intelligent people aggregated together in one end of society, and the dullards in the other, and nature did the rest. Nature is not idle, and with the lack of natural selection pressure, was returning to a less specialized form for the species.

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This extensive slave-class was highly composite, being bred from ancient conquered enemies, from outer-world stragglers, from dead bodies curiously galvanised into effectiveness, and from the naturally inferior members of the ruling race of Tsath.

You will also note, from the text concerning the man-animals, that the "hideous white flabby things"  are likely the result of natural interbreeding between "Idiots" and previously engineered lifeforms created by a different race entirely. (that different race being now the antecedents of the modern man-cattle that had been roaming the countryside.)

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And yet he could not refrain from crying out in terror at what he saw when he passed through the great vine-draped pylons and emerged upon the ancient road. He did not wonder that the curious Wichita had fled in panic, and had to close his eyes a moment to retain his sanity. It is unfortunate that some sense of pious reticence prevented him from describing fully in his manuscript the nameless sight he saw. As it is, he merely hinted at the shocking morbidity of these great floundering white things, with black fur on their backs, a rudimentary horn in the centre of their foreheads, and an unmistakable trace of human or anthropoid blood in their flat-nosed, bulging-lipped faces. They were, he declared later in his manuscript, the most terrible objective entities he ever saw in his life, either in K’n-yan or in the outer world. And the specific quality of their supreme terror was something apart from any easily recognisable or describable feature. The main trouble was that they were not wholly products of Nature.
The party observed Zamacona’s fright, and hastened to reassure him as much as possible. The beasts or gyaa-yothn, they explained, surely were curious things; but were really very harmless. The flesh they ate was not that of intelligent people of the master-race, but merely that of a special slave-class which had for the most part ceased to be thoroughly human, and which indeed was the principal meat stock of K’n-yan. They—or their principal ancestral element—had first been found in a wild state amidst the Cyclopean ruins of the deserted red-litten world of Yoth which lay below the blue-litten world of K’n-yan. That part of them was human, seemed quite clear; but men of science could never decide whether they were actually the descendants of the bygone entities who had lived and reigned in the strange ruins. The chief ground for such a supposition was the well-known fact that the vanished inhabitants of Yoth had been quadrupedal. This much was known from the very few manuscripts and carvings found in the vaults of Zin, beneath the largest ruined city of Yoth. But it was also known from these manuscripts that the beings of Yoth had possessed the art of synthetically creating life, and had made and destroyed several efficiently designed races of industrial and transportational animals in the course of their history—to say nothing of concocting all manner of fantastic living shapes for the sake of amusement and new sensations during the long period of decadence. The beings of Yoth had undoubtedly been reptilian in affiliations, and most physiologists of Tsath agreed that the present beasts had been very much inclined toward reptilianism before they had been crossed with the mammal slave-class of K’n-yan.

One could compare the torture and dismemberment of the slave class in the arena with the depictions of zombie hoardes getting shot with shotguns in "zombie apocalypse" media.


The creation of this slave class was not purposeful.  That is a very important take away.


CP:

Again, the "is a black man" is intended to be an analogy!  GAWD SAKE people.
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overseer05-15

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #139959 on: November 10, 2018, 02:26:14 pm »

I have been following the last three pages, what are you guys even debating about? The hell has zombies to do with morality? Is the shadow realm the one that gives extra attack points to magicians?

No, the loser of this (bizarre) textual duel is sent to the shadow realm. Iunno how it started or where the zombies came from tho.

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wierd

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #139960 on: November 10, 2018, 02:31:06 pm »

Zombies feature prominently in the story. (smirk)

I also used them as a literary artifice--  See also, Walking Dead, and how popular the show is. Zombies used to be real people, with dreams, families, friends... now they are just shambling... things.  Same is true of the k'n-yan slave-class.  Not human anymore. The result of natural phenomena. Put to use by the still intelligent master race of tsath.

As for what started it, I said that their culture was "not really all that bad", and it made Arx go into a hyperventilating conniption fit. 


If you read between the lines, their culture and our own has some very shocking parallels. Idiocracy is taken as a literary device to its obscene end, the 1% owning everything and becoming immortal (a real goal of modern 1%ers), and the downslide from intellectual riggor to "feelings" and "impulses" holding maximal value. (again, see Alt-Left and its rise in the information age.)

Compared to other mythos creatures, their culture is THE MOST like our own. That is probably what makes Arx so adamant against them. :P
« Last Edit: November 10, 2018, 02:35:58 pm by wierd »
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hector13

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #139961 on: November 10, 2018, 02:38:23 pm »

*clicks new replies to thread*

*skips over most of thread*

Ah... you guys know it’s not real right?
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Arx

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #139962 on: November 10, 2018, 02:40:00 pm »

I have been following the last three pages, what are you guys even debating about? The hell has zombies to do with morality? Is the shadow realm the one that gives extra attack points to magicians?

No, the loser of this (bizarre) textual duel is sent to the shadow realm. Iunno how it started or where the zombies came from tho.

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The zombies are a sort of side note in The Mound, the... topic? of discussion.

In any case, I play Pot of Greed. This allows me to draw two arguments.

The horror of their culture is intentionally a jab at hyper-liberalism, and how hyper-tolerance of personal preference and pleasure is bad.

Their culture would not have any problem with LGBT(other) gender or sexual identities-- it would embrace them, and want to experience them all.  It has no problems with odd political views, as long as they do not endanger the state. Etc.

To them, the torture of slaves is no different than cock-fighting, or other low-brow forms of public entertainment and spectacle-- in fact, it is strongly implied that their intellectual faculties are at once deteriorating from lack of stimulus, and also having reached max saturation in the sciences in the past.

I mean, yeah, this is kinda what I mean when I say they're "really all that bad". I find cock fighting hideously amoral already, having something worse than it as a staple entertainment? C'mon man.

Quote
Guess we have to start doing away with ethics in order to keep satisfying our curiosity.

Oh hey, it's what I've been saying all along. If you don't see the issue with this, then, welp, we're done here.

Quote
Again, the "is a black man" is intended to be an analogy!  GAWD SAKE people.

At some point you'll just have to accept that if everyone except you misinterprets it, it might be your fault :P



As for what started it, I said that their culture was "not really all that bad", and it made Arx go into a hyperventilating conniption fit. 

Come now, I've been nothing but civil and composed. Please, don't try and describe me as some kind of slavering zealot for disagreeing with you - especially when you keep casually calling me ignorant, short-sighted, small minded, and insulting my reading comprehension. Oh, not to mention the ALL CAPS you keep using to try and make your points. There's really no need to stoop to playground insults robed in fancy verbiage.

Ah... you guys know it’s not real right?

Honestly, I'm still here because I'm trying to figure out why wierd thinks torture as entertainment is okay. He hasn't actually given me a straight answer that isn't contradicted by the text other than "it's their culture!" and I find that kinda unsatisfying.
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wierd

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #139963 on: November 10, 2018, 02:42:37 pm »

Of course I do.

The purpose of such fiction is to compare it with real life, and attempt to answer otherwise unanswerable questions about philosophy.

Also, entertainment.


While you might not like the answer I gave you, it is the correct one.

Why do we in the west think homosexuality is OK?  It's our culture.  Ask a person from rural saudi arabia if they share that view. Most likely, they won't. Why? It's THEIR culture.



Also, again-- the sadists are looking for new sensations.  There are only so many ways to inflict pain, but there are many ways to experience it, and their race has the ability to absorb sensation information telepathically.

What makes you think the torture is power play, and not a very elaborate form of masochism, by proxy?  To wit-- a whole colloseum of celebrants can experience the sublime agony of the single tortured slave.  The pain is real, and everyone can talk about it afterward.

Intrinsically, how is this different from implanting electrodes into an animal's brain, than subjecting it to horrible shocks, or breaking its bones, and studying how its nervous system responds?  Intellectual curiosity instead of philosophical or carnal? How is one better?

« Last Edit: November 10, 2018, 02:50:16 pm by wierd »
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Arx

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #139964 on: November 10, 2018, 02:46:30 pm »

The kin-yan (from The mound) look like tall humans. They have an insular but culturally left-/liberal social norms otherwise. They are immortal and powerful psychics and telekinetics. Of course, they worship great old ones, but aside from their justifiable fear of being exterminated by humans really don't sound all that bad.)

So you stand by your claim that the only unlikable thing about their society is their response to being afraid of humans, then? 'Cause I can't shake the feeling the goalposts have shifted just a touch from "I don't think we'd find k'n-yan objectionable" to "from my perspective, the Jedi are evil!"
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