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[Arx]

How shall I phrase this in your terms?

In your haste to prove your own correctness, you have neglected to address some obvious issues with your own arguments. Principally, you assert that everything's fine because they're immortal. Secondarily, it's obviously been a long time since you read the story because half of what you say is flatly contradicted.

Shall we begin?

No. Neither are the majority of the kin-yan, as evidenced by how willing the protagonist female conspirator went with the defection plan.

All his efforts to leave, however, came to nothing. Persuasion was useless, as repeated trials proved; though the mature disillusion of the upper classes at first prevented them from resenting their guest’s open wish for departure.

...

His fresh opportunity came from an unexpected source—a female of his affection-group who conceived for him a curious individual infatuation based on some hereditary memory of the days of monogamous wedlock in Tsath. Over this female—a noblewoman of moderate beauty and of at least average intelligence named T’la-yub—Zamacona acquired the most extraordinary influence; finally inducing her to help him in an escape, under the promise that he would let her accompany him

Takes forever to find anyone willing to help him escape; check. She is only willing to help as long as he assuages her ennui by taking her with; check.

Their culture stopped evolving in a broad way when they became immortal.

Ding! Wrong.

The more Zamacona studied these things, the more apprehensive about the future he became; because he saw that the omnipresent moral and intellectual disintegration was a tremendously deep-seated and ominously accelerating movement. Even during his stay the signs of decay multiplied. Rationalism degenerated more and more into fanatical and orgiastic superstition, centring in a lavish adoration of the magnetic Tulu-metal, and tolerance steadily dissolved into a series of frenzied hatreds, especially toward the outer world of which the scholars were learning so much from him.

This is why the residents of the mound are forbidden to leave.

Ding! Wrong, connections were severed long before the rise of immortality.

No man not a slave of the space-devils, it was argued, could live long on the outer earth; and it was decided that all beings who remained there must be evilly connected.

Eg, the normative residents accept and begin trying to integrate the protagonist rather than incarcerate and torture him.

Ding! Wrong in all the implications. The government loves him too, and he's accepted primarily as a way of avoiding ennui.

He himself had been a cherished fountain of data, and as such had enjoyed a privileged status.

Compare, the protag is a black man.

Ding! Thread-appropriate? Literally the second paragraph

I am white

And if you mean Zamacona, he's Spanish, which is definitely not the same as being black.

Finally, your consistent claims about the plebiscite? All complete tosh. There is no intelligent plebiscite; only semi-humanoids with almost all the intelligence meticulously bred out of them. When you refer to the k'n-yan, you are per force referring to the ruling class.

In summary: next time you assert that Hitler did nothing wrong, please make sure you actually know who Hitler was before grabbing your front-end loader to dig yourself as deep as possible into a hole.

Here is the full text of The Mound, if you'd like to refresh your memory. After you're done, if you still think k'n-yan society is "really not that bad", I believe I have no further desire to interact with you. I find people who support torture and blood sport... distasteful.

[Imic]

I don't understand how people can get anxious or unhappy. At least involuntarily. I've always been able to choose how I feel about things. It seems like most people are constantly some degree of miserable and I really can't comprehend it.

Hearing people say that tends to make people depresed, since if all these normal people can do it, why can’t I become happy on a whim? I should be happy! Why amn’t I happy? BE HAPPY!
Then you cry a lot, because you’re comparing yourself to the world at large, which is, in my experience, not a good idea. Trauma can lead to it, such as someone convincing yoh as a child that you’re inferior. Natural Human instincts also play in, since people become depressed if they don’t see the sun for too long, which is also a slight issue with a number of colonization plans around the solar system, and why Northern countries have hugh suicide rates. Something unexpected which you do’t know how to handle also makes you miserable. Or you could just be insane. Or you could start out happy, but get nowhere in life, and find yourself crushed whenever you try to be happy, so you become miserable instead. There are a lot of ways people can become miserable, anxious, unhappy, and I know people who went through some of them, many of them, or all of them throughout my life. I know someone whi was clinically depressed at age fifteen,because of school trauma, and by convincing himself that be ause everyone else was happy, he should be too. So he started beating himself up over it, crying in evenings for no apparent reason, had anxiety attacks in the middle of School times, and had to drop out before the end of the term. I have no idea how you do it, but whatever you do, never tell someon depressed that you can do it. It makes it worse.

[Loud Whispers]

-snip-

The rhetorical style of you guy's posts read like the equivalent verbal sparring to a duel from The Princess Bride

[Imic]

-snip-

The rhetorical style of you guy's posts read like the equivalent verbal sparring to a duel from The Princess Bride

Next time, on Verbal sparring duels of the Princess Bay12!

_{I know I’m mixing references, don’t sue me.}

[Dunamisdeos]

What's all this pompous bullshit about undead slaves? Why else would you learn necromancy except for undead slaves?

Just remember, you can't spell slave without lave. Bathe your zombie servant regularly to avoid unseemly odor.

[Arx]

-snip-

The rhetorical style of you guy's posts read like the equivalent verbal sparring to a duel from The Princess Bride

Hmm. Then I guess you and misko trading essays must be well-choreographed combat, the ones where people spend all their time calling out logical fallacies would be Yu-Gi-Oh, and Ameri/Europol in heated times would be JoJo fight scenes: very fast and with a lot of unnecessary shouting.

[Kagus]

What's all this pompous bullshit about undead slaves? Why else would you learn necromancy except for undead slaves?

Just remember, you can't spell slave without lave. Bathe your zombie servant regularly to avoid unseemly odor.

I floss my skeletons every day. It's less of a hassle once you really incorporate it into your routine.


As for choosing how one reacts to something, my father is one such person. Or at least, he certainly claims as much and seems to be under the impression that he is. I've seen him be down and distraught though, so I suppose he'd simply chosen to feel that way on those occasions...

But yeah, definitely wasn't very helpful for me growing up with depressive symptoms. I'd feel awful, he'd say that I felt awful because I'd decided to feel awful about the situation, and that I'd feel happy again when it was important enough to me that I'd decide to feel happy. One such conversation led to this rather entertaining exchange:

Him: "It's just a matter of changing how you think about something."

Me: "Well, that's easier said than done..."

Him: "No. It's easier done than said."


The man's damn near a genius with all things mechanical and digital. Humans, not so much.

[MrRoboto75]

you verbal spar like a cow!

[Kagus]

you verbal spar like a cow!

I look that much like your fiancée?

[wierd]

*sigh*

I can't let the verbal sparring go un-opposed! (And yes, Your girlfriend has many bovine features, including the tenacity for chewing with an open mouth for hours on end, knobby knees, poor hygiene, and loud bellowing!  ALso, your mother was a hamster, and your father smells of elderberries!)

Arx--  The statement I made about how they behaved like the alt-left still applies.  By alt-left, I mean the kind of people who instantly associate anyone even a few meters away from a nazi rally as being nazis themselves, and go out of their way to paint them that way, and doxx them on the internet, and ruin their lives. (and feel justified doing so.)  This is quite similar to the "Anyone living on the surface must be in league with the star-devils!" mantra, and leads to equally irrational behavior.

It is true that the protag is treated specially, because he is an important source of information.  That is not really the telling thing.  Rather than kill him on the spot, wipe his memory and kick him out, or take him for one of the gruesome torture orgies you seem hell bent on fixating on--- they instead detained and questioned him. Surprisingly civil for a species of psychopaths, no?

As for your rebuttal about the culture being unwilling to have defectors--  Again, compare to North Korea.  There is a literal cult of personality there, where the fearless leader is literally considered infallable, and near unto a god. Literally venerated and praised in every home. The ideology that the world outside the Juche territory is a dystopic horror filled with unimaginable suffering is a staple. MOST PEOPLE ACTUALLY BELIEVE THIS in NK. It is only the people that have come to know differently through outside exposure, or exposure to media that paints a different picture that are willing to defect. The penalty for defection is very very high. Several generations of family members are sent to die in gulags for a single member of their family defecting. Naturally, most people you would ask in NK will be unwilling to defect.  Does that make them "Evil people"?  You are implying very intently that they are.

The current elite of the mound, hold their positions based on the narrative that the outside world is evil, and will destroy them.  Their leadership is ancient; literally millions of years old.  They have had AMPLE time to contemplate the dangers of outside ideology entering their community, which is exactly how the notion that anything on the surface must be contaminated by the old ones came to be.  In the antedeluvian epoch of the mythos world, the old ones ruled supreme, and their ideologies ran rampant. It was the contamination of these ideologies-- the worship of gods, the culture that this worship produced--- that was considered evil.  The threat was, and always has been cultural contamination.  In their new immortal condition, the influx of outside ideas from a very populous group in contravention of their own rule is seen as a massive threat to the social heirarchy.  Naturally, the leaders want to know all about the surface, so that they can use and turn that knowledge to further sustain their rule, should another breach occur.  However, security increased with the door, did it not?  Clearly, a peaceful denizen from the surface is much more of a threat to their power than is a deranged cultist wearing an octopus hat, and shouting about yog sothoth.

As I discussed briefly with Whispers, the now "very entrenched" culture is of a willfully capitulating underclass, ruled by an over-class.  The willfully capitulating underclass is liberal in its behavior, but is totally unwilling to engage in any action that will upset the power structure, as that will send the enforcers (who are likewise ageless, and have just been *WAITING* for any sign of disloyalty, oh yes-- WAITING PATIENTLY---) into a frenzy, and they do not want that.  His suggestions of leaving and going to the surface are treated with the same kind of "are you fucking nuts?" as would a "You should totally overthrow your government!" type statement is given here in the US.

The part about him being black, which you countered with a literal from the text "I am white"---- Is your reading ability compromised?  I was USING AN ANALOGY.  He is a "Black man", (eg, "Shaped the same, but clearly not the same as" type of 'other' in their society.) among
"white people".  Yes, he is a white HUMAN.  But he is a HUMAN among ALIENS.   

[Loud Whispers]

Hmm. Then I guess you and misko trading essays must be well-choreographed combat, the ones where people spend all their time calling out logical fallacies would be Yu-Gi-Oh, and Ameri/Europol in heated times would be JoJo fight scenes: very fast and with a lot of unnecessary shouting.

This thread... Is now a shadow thread! Muahahahaha

[Magistrum]

I have been following the last three pages, what are you guys even debating about? The hell has zombies to do with morality? Is the shadow realm the one that gives extra attack points to magicians?

[Dunamisdeos]

Hmm. Then I guess you and misko trading essays must be well-choreographed combat, the ones where people spend all their time calling out logical fallacies would be Yu-Gi-Oh, and Ameri/Europol in heated times would be JoJo fight scenes: very fast and with a lot of unnecessary shouting.

This thread... Is now a shadow thread! Muahahahaha

Shadow slaves do not require cleaning, but are also terrible at dusting.

[Arx]

Wierd, do yourself a favour. Stop posting until you've actually read the story again. In your desire to be right, you keep making outlandish claims directly contradicted by the story (for instance, the leadership is not millions of years old) and it really makes talking to you about it a waste of time. E: as for the black man thing, it's really not my fault you went from speaking literally, to speaking metaphorically, back to speaking literally but about the same thing as in the metaphor. That's not my reading comprehension, that was just a really janky way of phrasing your argument.

Hmm. Then I guess you and misko trading essays must be well-choreographed combat, the ones where people spend all their time calling out logical fallacies would be Yu-Gi-Oh, and Ameri/Europol in heated times would be JoJo fight scenes: very fast and with a lot of unnecessary shouting.

This thread... Is now a shadow thread! Muahahahaha

yourlogicalfallacyis.com has no pathetic arguments, kaiba!

[Imic]

I have been following the last three pages, what are you guys even debating about? The hell has zombies to do with morality? Is the shadow realm the one that gives extra attack points to magicians?

I mentioned something on how to correctly pronounce Cthulu (Something like KTGHLGH spoken somewhere between a hiss, a growl, and bark, and as if you’re speaking Welsh), and they managed to move from that to a polite and orderly discussion on the finer details of a Civilization which appeared in another of Lovecraft’s books, and whether or not their ethics are justified, work, or maybe... Well, I have no idea. They’re just poking holes in each other’s arguments now with no real goal in mind, as far as I can tell.