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[SOLDIER First]

my egg advice ;-;

[Adragis]

take a bath :3

[King Kitteh]

Aside from the moral issue (you would effectively be murdering every individual in the world by overwriting their minds)... Who would find better ways of doing things? Who would object when the hive mind chooses to do something horrifying? Who would think new thoughts, discover new things, come up with solutions to new problems?

I hope to have machines instead of people. They are more efficient.

But that aside, if you were to do it by "overwriting" people, I think it's a bit useless to consider morals that we won't have after overwriting. They're sure to become moot.

As I said with the happy chip, it sounds meaningless and shallow from outside, but is undeniably better when you start using it.


With things that are horrifying. Again, you will not think such from within the hivemind. What is horrifying, and what is not is completely subjective anyway.

In the movie "Galaxy Quest" there was a race of beings that would never lie, they did not understand why people would do such a thing. I'm sure they'd see the lives we lead as barbaric and horrifying, lying left and right.

[King Kitteh]

how about we all chill out and, iunno, cook

I made myself pancakes earlier and now I'm stuffed. We ran out of syrup too so I had to use castor sugar instead 

[Baffler]

In an attempt to take this in a new direction.

Do you guys see a point to human activity in occupations that robots do better? Do you believe in some kind of, human emotion that partakes into work? Something visceral, that robots can never do?


I think about these things, specifically within music. We have computers that can play music better than a human ever could. Better timing, always in tune, not restricted by number of fingers.

Yet we still go to see orchestras. Skyward Sword had a live orchestra for its soundtrack while all other Zelda games were done in midi. Is it better played by people?


And before you come talking about composing and such. Machines can do that to, and in tests they are indistinguishable from human compositions.

I am genuinely curious. I know personally I would pay more to see an orchestra, but I can't tell if this is because it sounds better, or because society has told me that I should like it.

It seems sort of pointless to automate artistic pursuits, IMO. Art is just as much for the benefit of the artist as it is for the viewer, maybe even more so. Sure a computer can belt out Beethoven's 9th, but the little quirks and improvisations of a human musician (or conductor) definitely show. People might disagree with me here, but I think the same applies to crafts. I'll absolutely pay more for a hand made piece of furniture or summat, because chances are good that it's made to last (not much planned obsolescence going on in the woodworking business) and I like seeing things like obvious tool marks and little imperfections. Someone made that end table, or cutlery set, and no single one is like any of the others. For some things, especially very delicate things, a highly uniform product is desirable, but we'd be losing out if we left craftsdwarfmanship by the wayside.

[SOLDIER First]

take a shower :3

i did

[hops]

How will robots not have conflicts? Components with different goals will fight. And you can't just not have a single component that does everything, then otherwise that'd just be a component made out of other components.

Also, a happiness chip is problematic not because it's unethical. It's problematic because society doesn't want you to use it.

We can't have a Brave New World-esque society because everyone will eiter be too stoned to keep shit operational, or everyone will be pissed off and wanting their next fix.

[King Kitteh]

So, you're saying the point is to value the imperfections or personalisation? Of course in that case imperfections aren't bad.

However we are met with another problem. Wouldn't it be possible to develop a machine that intuitively makes its own little imperfections, decides to change the music a little?
When we get to a point where it is impossible to tell whether the imperfections are man made or machine made, is there still a point to people making art?

I should also note that while with most forms of art, they tend to become more original and diverse over time, some types do not. Pop Music is a prime example. Over time Pop Music has become more and more similar. Although one might argue, that Pop Music serves the utility of an energetic boost, other more nuanced music serves to give meaning to the listener.

I also, personally, find much of modern art to be quite atrocious. I admire the works of older "high art" much more. I feel modern art is made with only shock appeal in mind, and often seems to be without meaning altogether.

[Shadowlord]

You say computers can make compositions indistinguishable from human ones, and play better.

Can they make music comparable to Play by Jolin Tsai? Or I Need a Doctor by Dr. Dre, Eminem, and Skylar Grey?

The only singing program I know of is Hatsune Miku, who sounds even more fake than Katy Perry - and Hatsune Miku can't write a song, afaik, she can only "sing" what she's told to sing.

[King Kitteh]

How will robots not have conflicts? Components with different goals will fight. And you can't just not have a single component that does everything, then otherwise that'd just be a component made out of other components.

Also, a happiness chip is problematic not because it's unethical. It's problematic because society doesn't want you to use it.

We can't have a Brave New World-esque society because everyone will eiter be too stoned to keep shit operational, or everyone will be pissed off and wanting their next fix.

You have many components that all work towards a common goal. We bring the car example back, its purpose is to transport people. The engine helps it move, the wheel allows traction and the seat makes it comf.

I really don't see where you're going with this. It isn't an impossibility to have two identical machines with identical ideals. There will be no conflict because there are no different ideals to clash!

Machines will work for the greater good. If we invent an anti-gravity field where a seat is not needed because people can float. My seat-bot won't have an uproar, it will know it is for the best, and it still fits its ideal! By retiring it is still helping to achieve the goal of "transporting people". (This is a bit of a bad example because in my eutopia there are no people).


You should also note that the society in Brave New World was created FROM conflict.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

People still went on talking about truth and beauty as though they were the sovereign goods. Right up to the time of the Nine Years’ War. That made them change their tune all right. What’s the point of truth or beauty or knowledge when the anthrax bombs are popping all around you? That was when science first began to be controlled-after the Nine Years’ War. People were ready to have even their appetites controlled then.

"People were ready to have even their appetites controlled then". They will submit when they realize the problems individuality causes.

[Baffler]

You say computers can make compositions indistinguishable from human ones, and play better.

Can they make music comparable to Play by Jolin Tsai? Or I Need a Doctor by Dr. Dre, Eminem, and Skylar Grey?

The only singing program I know of is Hatsune Miku, who sounds even more fake than Katy Perry - and Hatsune Miku can't write a song, afaik, she can only "sing" what she's told to sing.

That's where we run into point A though: art for the sake of the artist. Even if we do assume it's possible to get a machine to that point (something I'm not optimistic about by the way) the last thing we want to do is drive people out of creative pursuits because "a machine can do it better, so why are you even bothering?" If robots do all the work, and make all the art, what is everyone supposed to do all day?

[King Kitteh]

snip

I read about this in an article a while ago. I'm not so sure about specific genres. But I believe at least in classical it was indistinguishable.

Computers can indeed play music better than people. Or at least more "pure". Just find download a midi and find a program to play it. If the program is halfway decent it will produce the music perfectly in tune and perfectly in time.

There is no program that can mimic singing perfectly yet, although I believe people are trying. English is a hard language to replicate though, Japanese is a lot easier thanks to it's perfect syllables.

[King Kitteh]

what is everyone supposed to do all day?

Many people don't know this answer in society even now. I personally see the usefulness of people to be limited, and at one point we will all be obsolete.

There isn't an objective meaning to life as far I am aware, and I hope there isn't to be honest.

I guess you could listen to some robot made music and pretend a person created it. While at the same time another person uses a robot to make music, and pretends he composed it.

[Yoink]

I certainly hope King Kitteh doesn't actually believe these things, and is in fact pulling our legs with this bizarre argument.
Possibly to mock transhumanism. Poe's Law, as it is often described on this forum.

Otherwise I would be somewhat concerned for them.

[Baffler]

what is everyone supposed to do all day?

Many people don't know this answer in society even now. I personally see the usefulness of people to be limited, and at one point we will all be obsolete.

There isn't an objective meaning to life as far I am aware, and I hope there isn't to be honest.

I guess you could listen to some robot made music and pretend a person created it. While at the same time another person uses a robot to make music, and pretends he composed it.

The idea that people are useless is offensive to me, and generally leads to dangerous territory besides. What do you propose the people who can't support themselves anymore do now that they've become "obsolete"?