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Author Topic: The Transhuman Ozymandias - Realistically Creepy  (Read 11104 times)

Pandarsenic

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Re: The Transhuman Ozymandias - Realistically Creepy
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2010, 05:45:20 am »

Yeah I'm not going to sit here and listen to this bigoted shit either. Peter Thiel might be a throwback to the hyper get-rich-quick, venture-capitalist, dot-com era of the late 90s, but if you have to try to insult him by marking him as a transhumanist, you've gone clear off to the land of "You air-breathers suck, Hitler breathed air", and as a card-carrying transhumanist I'm offended by the comparison. Lock this damn topic and try again.

Godwin's Law yaaaay. Speaking as a Transhumanist, please don't be derp about this.

Transhumanism is about the betterment of mankind by progressing beyond simple bags of flesh and brainmeats.

Key word there being betterment.

Thus the:
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I remain committed to the faith of my teenage years: to authentic human freedom as a precondition for the highest good. I stand against confiscatory taxes, totalitarian collectives, and the ideology of the inevitability of the death of every individual. For all these reasons, I still call myself “libertarian.”

I think a post-death society would be good too but I'd like to see it happen for a good reason, not so Peter Thiel can masturbate on the poor.
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Aqizzar

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Re: The Transhuman Ozymandias - Realistically Creepy
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2010, 05:47:56 am »

Indeed.  This is not "Hitler was a vegetarian, therefore vegetarians are like Hitler", because Peter Thiel labels himself a "transhumanist", and from an outsider's perspective, espouses a lot of the same hopes like state-less governance and clinical immortality.  As far as I can see, that's a one-for-one comparative connection.  I'd love to hear your differences, and your criticisms or comments on the guy.  But I'm not going to lock it.  Heck, convince me otherwise about this stuff, I'm pretty easy to impress.

Note: Screw it, I have to go to sleep.  Of the sixteen replies to this thread, three actually have something to say about the topic.  Yes, I posted a vitriolic assessment of a man and his philosophies.  Agree, disagree, neutrally comment, whatever you want to do, I don't pretend people don't have a personal investment in some of these labels.  But coming in an demanding I shut it down and go away, or in Nikov's case because you have a bug up your ass about antagonizing me, is just irritating.  I've never reported a thread for anything but blatant trolling, and I'm hoping there's still a thread here when I get back.  And because that'll be misinterpreted, I haven't reported anything.  I'm saying I don't want to.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 06:01:07 am by Aqizzar »
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Eugenitor

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Re: The Transhuman Ozymandias - Realistically Creepy
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2010, 06:33:57 am »

This is probably a bad topic for it so I'll give you the condensed version: Evolution sucks.

We are not some super species with bodies gifted from some omnipotent being. We have stroke, heart disease, diabetes, susceptibility to cancer, ALS, hemophilia, frailty, osteoporosis, bad vision and hearing, the list goes on. That's just the physical crap. We're vulnerable to addiction, swayed by hormonal reactions like a pack of chimps, and so, so many of us are incredibly vulnerable to every kind of psychological attack.

And that's the real problem: we're almost fully sentient. Some of us are starting to get there, others don't even know where to start, most are horrifically misled. We're smart enough to make fusion bombs and we've almost been dumb enough to use them.

Chuck Darwin's just beginning to save us from this, but it'd take fifty thousand years to make real improvements and that's if we went with strict breeding controls. The only rational course is to use what we've learned to improve what we can, directly modifying human genetics as fast and as much as possible. Start with germ-line gene therapy to cure what we know can be cured, then go on to real bodily improvements. Anything directly improving the human brain is a priority because then the people with that power can start improving things faster. (No, there's no such thing as singularity unless there really is a way to break the laws of physics.)

And no, I don't favor the creation of some super-elite with all these improvements (although I know people who do...), if it were up to me I'd grant Doctors Without Borders or some other NGO the $billions they'd need to distribute every last human improvement they could, everywhere from East Siberia to Central Africa to Tierra del fucking Fuego.

State-less governance? I wish we could get there, but unless you seriously start re-engineering human behavior clear to what's effectively mind control, it's not likely to leave the realm of fiction. The government (and there will probably be only one) of 2500 AD won't look like our governments, but there will always be social problems of some kind so long as there's such thing as society, and whatever arbiter is called on to settle these problems becomes the de facto state.

Clinical immortality? Seriously, there's people opposed to clinical immortality? "No thanks, I'll take slow death"? You have two choices, pick one:

A) Hug your great-great-great-granddaughter (titanium-laced bones, skin strong as spider silk) and tell her that you've chosen to leave this world at the age of 250 as your brain has finally filled up and you figure it's better to have a new person than to start removing memories or relying on computers. She laughs and tells you about the new neuron upgrade.

B) Start forgetting things, slowly but surely, your granddaughter with tears in her eyes as she reluctantly signs you over to a nursing home. You don't know who these people are, you can't remember their names or even what you had for breakfast this morning (some form of mush, most certainly), the uncontrolled prions of Alzheimer's ravaging your thoughts. There's a four-digit code to get out of the building, and it's the current year. What year is it, again? You have no idea. 2010? Is Barack still president? By the time your lungs finally stop moving air and your DNR kicks in, you don't even remember your name.

No, seriously, pick one. The only rational opposition is of the "either we can't have kids or the world will become overpopulated" variety, and that's something we can deal with through better land management and space expansion.

This isn't fantasy, just futurism. Average, unfunded college kids getting and staying rich through making websites? Now that's fantasy.
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Soadreqm

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Re: The Transhuman Ozymandias - Realistically Creepy
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2010, 06:49:28 am »

Floating cities, with only rich people living in them, built in order to circumvent law? When I grow up, I want to be a pirate. :D

Seriously, though, I don't really even get the point of this anti-government sentiment. Any organization that takes over the world will BECOME the government. No matter who's in charge, SOMEONE is going to have to keep those roads maintained. Is he basically saying that things would be better (for him) with him as King?
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DJ

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Re: The Transhuman Ozymandias - Realistically Creepy
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2010, 07:15:37 am »

The only rational opposition is of the "either we can't have kids or the world will become overpopulated" variety, and that's something we can deal with through better land management and space expansion.
The end-all solution to scarcity has been just around the corner since the dawn of mankind. I doubt that better land management or space expansion will turn out any better than industrial revolution, irrigation, farming, bow and arrow, fire or flintknapping. The resources will always be limited, and humanity will always expand to completely fill it's niche whatever it may be.

So immortality does mean the end of childbirth, and then you may just as well take the mankind out behind the shed and put a bullet in it's brain, since a world without new people with their new ideas would be a stale one, which means you can forget about making any more progress.

And even if I'm wrong and there are kids, the resistance to change will be insurmountable when most of humanity is centuries old, so they won't have much of a shot at advancing mankind.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 07:18:34 am by DJ »
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Nonsapient

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Re: The Transhuman Ozymandias - Realistically Creepy
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2010, 09:57:01 am »

The only rational opposition is of the "either we can't have kids or the world will become overpopulated" variety, and that's something we can deal with through better land management and space expansion.
The end-all solution to scarcity has been just around the corner since the dawn of mankind. I doubt that better land management or space expansion will turn out any better than industrial revolution, irrigation, farming, bow and arrow, fire or flintknapping. The resources will always be limited, and humanity will always expand to completely fill it's niche whatever it may be.

So immortality does mean the end of childbirth, and then you may just as well take the mankind out behind the shed and put a bullet in it's brain, since a world without new people with their new ideas would be a stale one, which means you can forget about making any more progress.

And even if I'm wrong and there are kids, the resistance to change will be insurmountable when most of humanity is centuries old, so they won't have much of a shot at advancing mankind.
I fully agree.  I'm terrified of a perpetual geriocracy.

Also related:

One of my semi-heroes Elon Musk was the other founder of paypal.  He's the man behind SpaceX.

I sure hope they don't get along too well.
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Footkerchief

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Re: The Transhuman Ozymandias - Realistically Creepy
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2010, 10:31:30 am »

This isn't fantasy, just futurism.

Futurism is fantasy that hasn't yet revealed itself as such.  This would be obvious to any futurists who examined their hobby's history, but I guess that's the one trend they won't extrapolate.  Doesn't mean that fantasies can't come true, of course.

And lest you retort, I'm married, bitches, and my wife and I have totally done it.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 10:33:45 am by Footkerchief »
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Soadreqm

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Re: The Transhuman Ozymandias - Realistically Creepy
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2010, 11:40:36 am »

So immortality does mean the end of childbirth, and then you may just as well take the mankind out behind the shed and put a bullet in it's brain, since a world without new people with their new ideas would be a stale one, which means you can forget about making any more progress.

And even if I'm wrong and there are kids, the resistance to change will be insurmountable when most of humanity is centuries old, so they won't have much of a shot at advancing mankind.

So are you basically saying that for mankind to advance, old people must die and be replaced? I can't say I share this view. It sounds kind of cruel and shortsighted to me. For instance, take the recent death of Benoit Mandelbrot, famous mathematician. I don't think he was holding his field back, and I don't really see how his demise will advance it. Sure, now there's one less human using up our limited resources, and someone else can now study to eventually become a famous mathematician, but why would he automatically be capable of thinking thoughts Mandelbrot was not? Why are new people better than the ones we already have? And if clinical immortality was within our reach, where exactly would you put the culling age for old people who have outlived their usefulness? Thirty? Fifty? One hundred? Six hundred? Thirty thousand?

Also, would it imply that clinical immortality is in fact best left in the hands of venture capitalists, since no one cares whether they are making any progress? :P
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Aqizzar

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Re: The Transhuman Ozymandias - Realistically Creepy
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2010, 11:54:54 am »

And that's the real problem: we're almost fully sentient. Some of us are starting to get there, others don't even know where to start, most are horrifically misled. We're smart enough to make fusion bombs and we've almost been dumb enough to use them.

What definition of "fully sentient" are you working off of here?  What "rational course" do you want human engineering to follow?  What "human behavior" do you want to change exactly?  I'm sure there are good answers to these questions; I want to hear them.  It's just that, from where I'm sitting, it sounds like a slightly more technical version of the Philosopher-King sort of grand social engineering pitched by everyone from Socrates to Jules Verne to Robert Heinlein.  Every one in their own time promising the slow wasting death of humanity itself, for as long as the smart people weren't in charge like they're supposed to be.  Not due to scarcity or physical practicality, but due to human nature itself.

Lo and behold, we're still here, still kicking, still improving all the time.  Are there details to be argued over, and principles to be advanced?  Sure.  I guess my problem with Transhumanism is that all that looking forward has blinded them to how many people in the past were making the exact same promises and predictions, and turned out to be completely wrong.  Now, I've never been one to say that disqualifies a philosophy outright - you can be wrong a thousand times and still be right tomorrow.  I just have slightly more faith in the human condition and the power of humans to think their way out of problems with what we're given, and I've yet to see a "Futurist" plan that doesn't rely on instantaneous global harmony and physical impossibilities to achieve its goals.

So are you basically saying that for mankind to advance, old people must die and be replaced? I can't say I share this view. It sounds kind of cruel and shortsighted to me. For instance, take the recent death of Benoit Mandelbrot, famous mathematician. I don't think he was holding his field back, and I don't really see how his demise will advance it.

It's a question of aggregate, not specifics, and more importantly a question of politics.  One need only look at the U.S. Senate and its gerontocracy of thirty-year members to extrapolate what an undying legislature would look like.  The same thing appears across rulership throughout the world - nine times out of ten, if a person is making the rules, and they're significantly older than the population, it turns into a conservative anchor, as they consciously or not ground their policy decisions in the wisdom and nostalgia of their own glory days, instead of a rational appreciation of the present and future challenges.

And yes, in Thiel's case it would essentially ensure the undying rule of plutocrats, since they'd be the first ones to afford immortality, they'd have the most to gain from it by already having investments, and could easily buy their views into power.  Clinical immortality of the sort Thiel was describing wouldn't be the end of the human condition, it would be the permanency of corruption.
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Eagleon

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Re: The Transhuman Ozymandias - Realistically Creepy
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2010, 12:11:39 pm »

I guess you'd call me a conservative transhumanist. I want clinical immortality for all the reasons already stated - death is stupid, yadda yadda. At the same time, I fully expect the human race to expand to be just on the edge of autodigestion and full-on scarcity. I'm ok with that. It's what we have now. Giving humanity a chance to change and finally being able to brag about my knowledge of history in the 24th century is what transhumanism is about to me, not solving any kind of problem we have now. We can in fact solve the problems we have now with our regular human bodies, and our regular human resources. We just refuse to.
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Nonsapient

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Re: The Transhuman Ozymandias - Realistically Creepy
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2010, 12:20:14 pm »

While I support many of the ideas of transhumanism, and see some of it as inevitable (given we don't off ourselves), I refuse to be identified with the 'movement'.  It reeks of the same closed-off community that furries have, always dreaming in the clouds and never really making solid progress.
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ToonyMan

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Re: The Transhuman Ozymandias - Realistically Creepy
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2010, 12:30:52 pm »

Did he say that a good loser is still a loser?  Wow.


"Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser."
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 12:33:10 pm by ToonyMan »
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DJ

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Re: The Transhuman Ozymandias - Realistically Creepy
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2010, 12:32:38 pm »

How much do you think Mandelbrot would accomplish if he had to live in Pythagoras' shadow? Sometimes radical new ideas just can't get off the ground till the old guard dies. Old people tend to be conservative, and with immortality 99.9% of people would be old (or 100%, if we have to give up children for it).

There's a reason why you don't see any immortal species. It's not technically impossible, but any such specie would be pushed out of it's niche by ones with a limited lifespan, since they'd leave them in the dust in the evolutionary race. Cultural evolution is kinda similar.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 12:50:15 pm by DJ »
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Aqizzar

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Re: The Transhuman Ozymandias - Realistically Creepy
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2010, 12:40:37 pm »

I refuse to be identified with the 'movement'.  It reeks of the same closed-off community that furries have...

Never heard that one before...  I bet there's a lot of overlap in the furry and transhuman communities.  I mean, it's right in the name.

Did he say that a good loser is still a loser?  Wow.

This we can all come together on at least, that a guy is a serious tool.
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Nonsapient

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Re: The Transhuman Ozymandias - Realistically Creepy
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2010, 12:59:55 pm »

I refuse to be identified with the 'movement'.  It reeks of the same closed-off community that furries have...

Never heard that one before...  I bet there's a lot of overlap in the furry and transhuman communities.  I mean, it's right in the name.

Did he say that a good loser is still a loser?  Wow.

This we can all come together on at least, that a guy is a serious tool.

I'm not in any way saying that I agree with what the guys above have said (or other transhumanists) just that the rate of technological innovation is indeed accelerating exponentially.

And I'm not a furry. (or have furry tendencies)

Just so we're clear.   >:(
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