Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Lord Vetinari]

Since some of my old suggestions and after reading some topic in this section, I’ve been thinking about a new way to define rooms and new kind of rooms as well. So, I thought to make this thread, to collect all our ideas on the topic. Some of these ideas come from other threads, so I want to say that I’m not taking credits for them.

General
- First of all, I think that the game should dump the current system of defining a room from it’s furniture and turn all of them into activity zones. This way we could set up zones pretty quickly and change the forniture when needed/desired (for example, in the first years I use everything is available, no matter it’s quality/material/color; if the suggestion to give additional value to those rooms that have a uniform set of forniture is accepted, this will come in handy). Of course this is not ment for cheating. Dwarves will have unhappy thoughts from, say, a bedroom without a bed.

- Players should be able to assign a room to social positions (i.e. the official mayor/king/broker/militia captain/whatever mansion) and profession (farmers quarters near the farms, for example, or guildmembers quarters near the guild house) too. I know that all of this can be done manually, but it’s a long and tedious work; it requires a lot of swapping between the game and Dwarf Therapist and one second after you’ve finished, one of the farmer which happens to have a very low glasmaking skill has a mood, becomes a legendary glassmaker, and you need to reassign him again.

- In this system, some public rooms have dedicated workers and/or supplies.  Those provide a better service to dwarves which use the rooms, which means an extra happy thought and / or a faster way to satisfy the needs. Room workers may also keep the room supplied. For example, the dining room should have goblets, dishes and waiters. Dwarves can still grab food and drinks with their bare hands from the stockpiles as they do now, but with dishware and waiters they can eat more efficently, be happier and spend less time to do it. There’s no real need to actually use dishes, if it’s a hard to code;  they may just be stored in the room and speed up the eating process. Waiters too are not required to actually bring food (i’ve seen what happens with injured and arrested dwarves). A fully staffed and supplied room has an higher value.


Dining room
-   supplies: goblets/mugs, dishes/bowls, food?.
-   furniture: tables, chairs/thrones, bins (to store the supplies), well
-   workers: waiters / servants
-   other options: can work as meeting area and/or theater.

Sleeping room
-   supplies: none
-   furniture: bed(s), chests, cabinets
-   workers: none
-   other otpions: ?

Statue garden
-   supplies: none
-   furniture: statues
-   workers: none?
-   other options: meeting area, theater?

Zoo
-   supplies: food for animals (when and if they’ll need to eat)
-   furniture: cages
-   workers: animal caretakers, animal trainers, dungeon master?
-   Other options: meeting area, ?

Hospital
-   supplies: threads, cloth, cast powder bags, soap, medicines (when we’ll have alchemy)
-   furniture: beds, tables, traction tables, stretchers (to move patients from tables to beds without waking them up; only if/when carts et similia will be available).
-   workers:  nurses, doctors
-   other options: ?

Thermae / bathing house (I feel that we really need to make a proper room for this. A pond with soap stockpiles nearby just doesn’t work, half of the time my dwarves keep using the well in the dining room and splat mud on my precius engraved floor)
-   supplies: soap, cloth (for towels?)
-   furniture: chests (t store the supplies), wells, pond?
-   workers:  bath waiters?
-   Other options: ?

Theater
-   supplies: none
-   furniture: chairs
-   workers: actors/bards (even travelling bards, when and if we’ll get other travellers aside from merchants).
-   other options: meeting area?

Guild house (when we’ll have guild/social system)
-   supplies: ?
-   furniture: ?
-   workers: ?
-   other options: meeting area for members?

Temple/shrine (just a guild house for belivers?)
-   supplies: ?
-   furniture: ?
-   workers: priests?
-   other options: meeting area for worshippers?

Workshop
-   supplies: tools, materials, ?
-   furniture: workbench (more than one), ?
-   workers: depends on the kind of workshop
-   other options: ?

Farm (farmer's workshop)
-   supplies: buckets, ?
-   furniture: ?
-   workers: farmers, butchers, ?
-   other options: meeting area for animals (to speed up milking and butchering).

jail
-   supplies: food, drink, bed, table, chair ?
-   furniture: cages, chains
-   workers: prison guards, ?
-   other options: ?

Other?

[thijser]

Work areas where we have the workshops?

[Andeerz]

I like the general idea of the OP. 

To add my 2 cents, if tools get hashed out in fort mode, perhaps workshop areas and what activities could be done in them could be dependent on or modified by the availability of tools in them or the tools carried by the dwarfs...

Perhaps a generic workshop area could be laid down (what thijser was saying) and could be claimed by one or more dwarves.  These dwarves could store their tools there and other materials necessary for their work.  This could maybe make it easier to have multiple dwarves work together to produce things faster and through this maybe do apprenticeship.  I dunno...

[Draco18s]

Good collection of ideas, although I'm not so sure about turning workshops into "work area" zones.  To me, that adds unnecessary complication to it (having to manage a work zone's tools).

[Jazzfunk]

Got to agree with turning structure-defined rooms into zones.  The current system is confusing for new players and arbitrarily complex.

[ISGC]

perhaps an Office could be made into a single room with chairs and tables and such, instead of making on for each individual noble.

[Draco18s]

perhaps an Office could be made into a single room with chairs and tables and such, instead of making on for each individual noble.

I think an office is an office and not an office.

[Shades]

Good collection of ideas, although I'm not so sure about turning workshops into "work area" zones.  To me, that adds unnecessary complication to it (having to manage a work zone's tools).

On the other hand a single mason work area with two benches seems nicer than two workshops next to each other.

[Draco18s]

Good collection of ideas, although I'm not so sure about turning workshops into "work area" zones.  To me, that adds unnecessary complication to it (having to manage a work zone's tools).

On the other hand a single mason work area with two benches seems nicer than two workshops next to each other.

How so?  Only one mason could use the place at a time, if you only have one set of tools.  Or two sets of tools and one bench.

[Kurouma]

Some way to merge the two systems would be good, it doesn't make sense to have them separate.
To be honest, I prefer flowing a room out from a relevant piece of furniture. It seems to me to actually be the most intuitive way to make a room, and it ensures there's at least one piece of required furniture. Makes sense to me too: right now I can make a hospital that doesn't have any beds, tables, benches, or supplies? What?
A lot of the op's suggestions (guild hall, temple, theatre) really lend themselves to having their own unique structures (guild seal, shrine, ticket box office??) associated with them. All of the op's functionality suggestions could be handled from the q menu, including assigning workers and assigning use by profession or individual, as well as recording what supplies and constructions are in it and what ones you still need to add.

Non-building zones like sand collection and fishing could be flowed out from a special flag or marker structure that you construct and place - q-hover shows something like 'press s to designate sand collection. press f to designate fishing zone. press b to designate bathing area. etc. Also the flag is 'story-justified' by actually showing your dwarfs where to go.

I think that would be easier.

[Felix the Cat]

I've always thought that a single zone system for all rooms, from workshops to dining rooms, from archery ranges to bedrooms, would be the best system.

My thinking has been this:
-Rooms, at their core, contain furniture. "Core" furniture of a room is assigned at the time of designating the room - thus keeping the intuitiveness of defining rooms from core furniture items. The room's possible uses are constrained by the core furniture item assigned - a room assigned a bed will naturally be a bedroom; however, a room simply assigned a workbench could be any of several workshops.
-Different "secondary" furniture items add to the room's usefulness and value, and in some rooms help to define the difference between the rooms - a workbench room given a sawhorse should be a carpenter's shop, while a workbench room given a mill might be a jeweler's shop. Storage and value-adding items are also secondary furniture items, even though they don't change the nature of the room. Workshops would seek to obtain enough storage to store some of their production on-site.
-The dwarves themselves would seek to fulfill their rooms' secondary furniture requirements. When a room with a workbench as core is designated as a carpenter's shop, the carpenter with the first job from the shop will seek to bring a sawhorse to the shop. Secondary items of basic industries should be easily produced - if no sawhorse is available, for example, the carpenter should simply transform a log into one on his own. Secondary items of more advanced industries would require production by more basic industries. The same goes for non-productive rooms - dwarves would seek to have appropriate secondary furniture in their own bedrooms, rather than requiring it to be assigned; secondary furniture could be changed by the player to suit his/her own desires as well.
-Tools may or may not be in. My thinking is that a craftsman owns his tools; craftsmen arrive on the map with the appropriate tools to do their job. My thinking leads me to believe that tools should not be in except for exceptionally large or complex tools which are still not large enough to be furniture items, of which I'm sure there are several but I can't think of any.
-There's no reason why multiple dwarves couldn't work in a zone, and in fact I'd see this as a common occurrence - in multiple independent usage (2 carpenters working on 2 projects), teamwork, and apprenticeship situations (zomg useful kids). A second core furniture item could be required, as well as perhaps more secondary furniture, to accommodate a second (third, fourth) dwarf. Again, rooms with multiple dwarves working/living/etc. in them should be handled in a streamlined manner - perhaps by the player simply choosing how many dwarves the room is designed to handle (with specific assignment of dwarves of course also possible).
-Overlapping rooms share stuff? Overlapping workshops could share storage. If that's the case, production of improved items is streamlined - if the jeweler's shop shares storage with the mason's shop, for example, encrusting furniture becomes easy and intuitive (assuming it's programmed that the jeweler first seeks to encrust furniture inside his shop) - we can assign our legendary mason to the one with the jeweler's shop so we know that it's always good furniture being encrusted. Some sharing is bad; dwarves don't like to share their personal bedroom cabinets (nor their beds, unless they're married). Some portable things could be shared between areas where they are needed, with dwarves carrying them to where they need them. Two masons are working as a team to complete some statues, and have two chairs and one workbench; they finish, and the carpenter's apprentice takes the unused chair to his workshop. Quarrels over workshop equipment; guild involvement; personality conflicts, grudges, fights.
-Rooms aren't only what we have now; rooms/zones exist primarily as a way of assigning space. No reason why they can't be unified with stockpiles either to reduce the complexity there. Combo workshop/stockpiles. Food stockpile affixed to the dining room or kitchen or independent. (Pathing is reduced in these cases as dwarves first have an opportunity to find nearby items within a limited search space. This may already be well-optimized though, and premature optimization is a programming evil anyways.) Further expansion opportunities; chapels, guild halls, clan meeting halls, prisons, generic recreation spaces customizable by the player.

The room-as-zone concept, with the appropriate changes to the flow of the room/zone interface, significantly streamlines organizing the fortress.

[Lord Vetinari]

Some way to merge the two systems would be good, it doesn't make sense to have them separate.
To be honest, I prefer flowing a room out from a relevant piece of furniture. It seems to me to actually be the most intuitive way to make a room, and it ensures there's at least one piece of required furniture. Makes sense to me too: right now I can make a hospital that doesn't have any beds, tables, benches, or supplies? What?
A lot of the op's suggestions (guild hall, temple, theatre) really lend themselves to having their own unique structures (guild seal, shrine, ticket box office??) associated with them. All of the op's functionality suggestions could be handled from the q menu, including assigning workers and assigning use by profession or individual, as well as recording what supplies and constructions are in it and what ones you still need to add.

Non-building zones like sand collection and fishing could be flowed out from a special flag or marker structure that you construct and place - q-hover shows something like 'press s to designate sand collection. press f to designate fishing zone. press b to designate bathing area. etc. Also the flag is 'story-justified' by actually showing your dwarfs where to go.

I think that would be easier.

I know, it was ment for a couple of reasons: first, to organize spaces faster (you can design your rooms as soon as you dig them out); second, to replace furniture as you get higher quality and/or correct color. With the current design system you have to destroy the room and reassign it when you have to change your first piece of furniture. Third, sometimes it's hard to design a room if there are no doors, which means that you frequently need doors too, other than the core furniture item.

-The dwarves themselves would seek to fulfill their rooms' secondary furniture requirements. When a room with a workbench as core is designated as a carpenter's shop, the carpenter with the first job from the shop will seek to bring a sawhorse to the shop. Secondary items of basic industries should be easily produced - if no sawhorse is available, for example, the carpenter should simply transform a log into one on his own. Secondary items of more advanced industries would require production by more basic industries. The same goes for non-productive rooms - dwarves would seek to have appropriate secondary furniture in their own bedrooms, rather than requiring it to be assigned; secondary furniture could be changed by the player to suit his/her own desires as well.

I actually like your ideas, but I'm a little bit worried about dwarves automatically choose their "secondary" furniture.
What happens if Urist McLowlevelfarmer chooses that precious golden cabinet artifact that I was saving for the king's bedroom? Replacing it with some ordinary stone cabinet will seriously lower the value of the room. Won't this affect his morale? Also, when dwarven economy comes back, I see the possibility that dwarves choose furniture too expansive for their pockets.

You say that we can change them if we don't like the choice, but this may mean that we'll end up manually building most of them just as it happens now.

-There's no reason why multiple dwarves couldn't work in a zone, and in fact I'd see this as a common occurrence - in multiple independent usage (2 carpenters working on 2 projects), teamwork, and apprenticeship situations (zomg useful kids). A second core furniture item could be required, as well as perhaps more secondary furniture, to accommodate a second (third, fourth) dwarf. Again, rooms with multiple dwarves working/living/etc. in them should be handled in a streamlined manner - perhaps by the player simply choosing how many dwarves the room is designed to handle (with specific assignment of dwarves of course also possible).

Multiple workbenches for multiple workers. I'd use multiple workers to speed up the construction project, but I'd keep the current situation (aka, more than one workshop room if you want more than one project at the same time).

[Silverionmox]

Flexible workshops and room definition

Also in the eternal suggestion list as "Room system defined Workshops", currently at 28.

I'd ditch the centrepiece furniture requirement. It's turning things upside down: what really happens is that first you dig a room, then you decide what function you want to give it, and finally you place furniture to make that possible. So I'd emulate that:
1. First dig a room, 

2. then define the space of the room (in the same way we do now, flowing out from a position, except there's not furniture in the centre: it can be done from any xyz position),

3. then indicate what jobs you want the dwarves to do in that room. There would be a screen or screen area with a list of possible jobs (gemcutting, cooking meals, metalcrafting, etc... probably corresponding to the different skills to facilitate management). The player would highlight the desired jobs. When he does that, all the necessary furniture for these jobs would be displayed right next to it (with colours; green: present in the room; yellow: not present but available; red: needed and no free piece available). (Conversely, in an existing room, the game could indicate which jobs are possible with the furniture that's already present.)

4. Then you could go ahead and produce/place the furniture needed for the jobs you want in that room, using the list of necessary furniture the game just gave you. Alternatively, there could be the option "Dwarves manage room furniture" that makes them automatically place the furniture (take the tools) as it becomes available.

That last option (which should be standard IMO) could be complemented by another: "Dwarves auto-upgrade furniture in this room up to level x". If a better quality piece of furniture would become available, they would get it, and replace the old piece. Very useful for your noble rooms. For private rooms both of these options enabled would mean that a dwarf could do anything within his budget in his room (engraving, placing furniture, tapestries etc.). That would lighten the player's burden significantly ànd would be fun to watch.

The corollary of step 3 is that you can very easily adapt your workshops to your needs. If you want to do the "render fat" and "make meal" jobs in two different places, that's easily possible: you can then use the manager and trust that they will end up in the right workspace/workshop. Alternatively, if you want to centralize all the jobs that result from cutting up wildlife (butchery, tanning, render fat, fish cleaning, small animal dissection etc.), that's now possible!

If you, for some reason, have but few tools and furniture, using a combined workshop makes sure they are used non-stop.

Another effect of step 3 is that you can, by using the Workshop Profile, indicate very precisely which dwarves do which jobs.