Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Neonivek]

There are usually many ways in which worlds limit magical potential

1) Trait: Some people are born with the ability to do magical things and some are not
2) Exposure: In order to perform magic you require exposure to the supernatural which is either rare and/or dangerous
3) Education: Learning magic requires extencive academic research
4) Expense: Magic is an expencive undertaking. Some fiction have entire kingdoms have only one wizard due to how expencive it can become.
5) Secret: Magic, its use, and how to obtain it is kept a secret
6) Danger: Learning magic is dangerous, thus the limitations are from people refusing to learn or dying in the process
7) Weak: Magic isn't useful or at least not practically useful
Granted: Magic is granted by supernatural beings
9) Emergent: Magic is relatively new and thus how to use it is unknown.
10) Talent Required: Magic requires great talent to use even minor incantations.
11) Painful: Magic is painful for the owner to use, perhaps even dangerously so.
12) Lifespan: Magic plays with the user's lifespan
13) Sanity: Magic plays with the user's sanity
14) Limited access: Magic has a limit of the number of people with the ability to do so.

And that isn't all.

You don't have to get into "Magic cannot be useful" Territory to limit magic at all. Turning lead into gold? I hope you have your powdered diamonds ready.

[JohnieRWilkins]

There are usually many ways in which worlds limit magical potential

1) Trait: Some people are born with the ability to do magical things and some are not
2) Exposure: In order to perform magic you require exposure to the supernatural which is either rare and/or dangerous
3) Education: Learning magic requires extencive academic research
4) Expense: Magic is an expencive undertaking. Some fiction have entire kingdoms have only one wizard due to how expencive it can become.
5) Secret: Magic, its use, and how to obtain it is kept a secret
6) Danger: Learning magic is dangerous, thus the limitations are from people refusing to learn or dying in the process
7) Weak: Magic isn't useful or at least not practically useful
8) Granted: Magic is granted by supernatural beings
9) Emergent: Magic is relatively new and thus how to use it is unknown.
10) Talent Required: Magic requires great talent to use even minor incantations.
11) Painful: Magic is painful for the owner to use, perhaps even dangerously so.
12) Lifespan: Magic plays with the user's lifespan
13) Sanity: Magic plays with the user's sanity
14) Limited access: Magic has a limit of the number of people with the ability to do so.

And that isn't all.

You don't have to get into "Magic cannot be useful" Territory to limit magic at all. Turning lead into gold? I hope you have your powdered diamonds ready.

Hm, yea I guess most of these are reasonable limiters. You've done a good job listing possible limits, but are they any fun? Ask yourself: How do these magic limits bring conflict to the world? How is this conflict resolved? Would you like to partake in the conflict caused by those limits?

I guess the "granted" type of limit could cause a great deal of conflict if you have to kill dozens of megabeasts to grant your magical powers. But then having access to all magic from that point on isn't very fun. If it's only limited by skill level, then what's to stop you from macroing your way to legendary? Of course the negative effects thing is a good limit for that, but then I'd feel cheated out of being able to do magic for reasons mentioned in the earlier post, plus it'd just seem much less magical than it could have if it was MUCH more limited. For everyone. Incl. your god-mage character. This is exactly what brought me to make the thread right next to this one. :P

The best possible magic system has limiters that kick ass, magic that kicks ass, and the whole magic system is generally the most fun possible.

[Neonivek]

If it's only limited by skill level, then what's to stop you from macroing your way to legendary?

Time and patience.

How do these magic limits bring conflict to the world? How is this conflict resolved? Would you like to partake in the conflict caused by those limits?

Magic itself brings conflict. It is by the people who have magic and those who do not that there is conflict involved.

Not all these limiters are compatable with Player Magic or Fortress magic. Some of these are better for storybooks then actual games.

then having access to all magic from that point on isn't very fun

You killed a dozen megabeasts. I think you earned it. If it doesn't become fun then it simply means you reached the logical conclusion of your character.

Heck I always liked the idea of magic requiring such great sacrifices and sources that Players who want to truely delve into the mystical arts would have to make deals with gods, demons, and other beings in order to obtain it and thus bring that knowledge into the world. The players would not only have to deal with this conflict but also see how their dirrect involvement with magic is sculpting the world.

That and I also kinda wanted a magic setting for the world, similar to my diety activity setting, for determining how magical your world is. With the highest setting functioning like a Kung-Fu movie where anyone trained in martial arts is capable of deft defying stunts.

[Areyar]

Personally, I'd prefer dwarven magic to be mostly how they and only they can create legendary craftdwarfship, that and the 'magical' mechanics.

Magic should be linked to the biome (or the reverse: the biome should be influenced by the flavour of local 'magic fields', -nodes or whatever.)

Wizards definately! as wanderers, as evil tower masters, as guild masters teaching apprentices etc.
Demons should definately be magical. (or a source of magic as suggested at above)

edit:

Wasn't this thread at one point more about the ways magic would vary by world-gen?

I just butted in here, but remember a discussion on that topic, yes, though that was in a different thread iirc.

[Knigel]

Wasn't this thread at one point more about the ways magic would vary by world-gen?

[Javarock]

I think the magic rule system should be randomized on worldgen.  It would require extensive experimentation to figure out, and almost always lead to FUN for the fortress.

I agree, That would be fun I also liked the suggestion of each civ haveing diffrent magic. (But yeah I agree dwarf should have no magic, Besides artifacts... But ill give up the point) Of a certain character in your fort ((A mage?)) Getting courouse about diffrent fourms or playing with new spells. Angering other dwarfs and send them after him to result with a civil war... Only to be interferred with another civ following the same forms of magic running to his aid.

I also agree with some magic being given upon race, But I think what exactly that power is should be randomly genrated, Say you gen a wrold. You then go to adventure mode and play as a dwarf. Playing for a while you set fire to something. Then you notice something strange as your dwarf walks toward the fire it goes out...

For race given powers it should be subtile like that not exactly a "Ooooh all dwarfies can cast fireball!" more or less immunites leavtation, Seeing in the dark... Of course there can be diffrent sets of race abilties... Take for example [MAGIC:EARTH:INNATE] something about the earth, can range from the abilty to always find a certain stone or abilty to craft the stone to things it normally wouldn't...

On this the Innate abiltys could also have a diffrent ammount given for each race ((say elfs have three, Dwarfs five, Humans 7)) but has somewhere alogn the line of 1-10, With one being less commen two and three commen and rarer going up....

[Nighthawk]

Hmmm... magic is something I'm sure would spice up DF quite a bit, but making it fair will be quite a hassle.... I'm not thinking so much as far as Dwarf Fortress mode, but also Adventure. I have a few points to make, and I didn't read the entire thread, so please tell me if I repeated something.

First note - I think magic should be a bit more than simple enchantments. I believe magic should be cooler than that. But that's just me.

#1 - Magic should be powerful, but not to the point where magic always wins. Take Gandalf from LOTR for instance. He uses a sword and his magic staff, but when it comes down to it, his magic destroys all. That would be overpowered. Magic should either be used as a last resort, or a sudden burst at the beginning of a battle.

#2 - Spam must be stopped. This could be done in several ways. You could create an invisible MP system, but that would be too simple, and in my opinion, stupid. Or... I'm thinking something along the lines of magic causing fatigue. It could be more like the book Eragon, where using magic took physical strength and stamina. Your character could become tired, and suffer from exhaustion if spamming spells, and eventually pass out, or even die from overexertion.

#3 - It should be possible to have a character be a pure wizard. But it should not be easy. It should require a good amount of time before anyone can give up weapons and use just magic. Some sort of stat, like 'magic skill' should decide how much the user is drained of energy from casting, and this can be trained by using spells more often.

#4 - Spells must have some depth. Since spells drain your character of energy, they must have an element of strategy to them. For instance, some spells could be used as area affect, therefore, they become more useful when fighting enemies in large groups. This way, you could use a single spell rather than blasting magic bolts singularly at each foe you see.

#5 - Spells must have a learning system. Your character shouldn't learn spells automatically. In DF mode, perhaps they could purchase books of magic from other races via trade, and in Adventure, your character could buy them from shops, or get them as rewards for helping... wizards, as suggested at the beginning of the thread?  And maybe a single spell book could contain multiple spells of one type. That way, element mastery and the like would be possible. No matter how you look at it, spells should not be too easily accessible. They should require some time and patience to get.

#6 - Spells must have an armor system. What I mean by this, is, there must be some way to determine how much damage spells do to enemies. It could be simple, and you could just say that spells go through most armor, except enchanted items and such, or you could make it complicated. You could give each spell a logical effect. For example, a blast of lighting should do more damage if the character being hit is wearing some sort of metal. But if a launched rock or fireball hits you, you should be protected by armor.

#7 - All races should have access to all types of magic... eventually. What I mean is, I agree that dwarves should have magic through items, but they shouldn't be completely stopped from accessing arcane and powerful attack magic. That would be kind of... racist. It should just be a bit more difficult for them. As for elves, perhaps they would easily learn how to use small charms and some offensive/defensive spells, but have trouble crafting magical items. So they would be glad to trade with the dwarves if it meant access to enchanted weapons, armor, and crafts. See what I mean? Each race should start somewhere on a large tree of magic, giving them easier access to some magic, and harder access to others. That would encourage trade, and give players a choice, while still permitting freedom.

That's all I have. If magic is what awaits us, I can't wait to see the future. I'm sure it will be filled with fun.

[Neonivek]

#1 - Magic should be powerful, but not to the point where magic always wins

Well when your dealing with supernatural creatures and deities... I'd think magic would be quite powerful, even overwhelmingly so, in the right hands.

Then again there is a strong indication that Toady plans on mixing magic with other forms of combat (So we will have magical martial arts)

Also nothing is wrong with magic spam when dealing with Dwarf Fortress, a game where crossbows are legitimately deadly.

[Nighthawk]

Also nothing is wrong with magic spam when dealing with Dwarf Fortress, a game where crossbows are legitimately deadly.

True, crossbows are pretty powerful, but think. They have an obvious weakness. The archers firing them can only hit you if you are in view, and the bolts can still be blocked or dodged. I once had a battle with a bandit camp in which I took out all the melee fighters, then proceeded to block and dodge about 5 bolts in a row before finding the crossbowman shooting them and taking him out with a few strikes. If you find that crossbowman, they usually go down really quick.

I still don't think magic should be spammable, because it would make it less... magical. If magic is viewed as just another ranged weapon, we won't even think twice about it. Magic should be special.

[malimbar04]

My favorite idea in this thread so far is to take the powers from magical creatures.

Then... what if magic was defined as modifying the values in the raws as a modifier. We could thus make blood in an area boil, or add a demon-like property to it, or perhaps thaw out water long enough to store it underground. The actual characteristic given to an area would be chosen by the spirit though, rather than the dwarf.

To be possessed, we would need to persuade a creature to posses us. This would probably require:
- capturing the demon
- persuasion skills to talk to the demon / trainer skills to tame the demon
- magic affinity
- haggling with the demon (maybe he wants an adamantine sword, the sneaky bastard).
And then you get the subtle but very powerful ability to modify the charactoristics of whatever is on a tile. The demon would be doing the actual work (with whatever demon skills they have), and thus his soul gets to choose what is made. If a demon likes fire, for example, perhaps he increases the temperature of a square (thus being able to start fires or melt ice). If the demon has 3 arms and is known for it's poisonous breath, then perhaps casting on blood causes it to mix his blood with it, making it become poisonous (very useful in fortress mode for defense if properly controlled).

It would be sufficiently hard to do this that it would be extremely rare.
It would be extremely powerful, but difficult to control and not always predictable (demon strength and personality decide)
It could have major consequences (what if the demon possesses you, perhaps when your sleeping, or whenever you see a fluffy wambler)
The power would occasionally be useless (lower the melting point of ice, but not enough to melt it)
The power would benefit from dwarven engineering, particularly to capture the creature without dieing
It would add conflict between races, as certain races have better access to magical creatures, or are more easily possessed by them

In adventure mode, it would be a little more tricky though no less useful. Perhaps the adventurer can do this by stunning the creature, or finding a friendly one (they do occasionally exist). Perhaps a soul could be "purchased" when creating your character (for lots of points).

[Karakzon]

Just my random thoughts to be considerd:

1) you could have an artifact conflic response, so, if you wear a powerfull helmet, using another powerfull item causes some debuff/random interaction or some sort, as the two magical auras interfear with each other. hence, you cant become a magicaly fueled juggernaught.
2) you could go the warhammer 40k route were you have magical voids/null minds, that cancell out or weaken magic, so relying on magic too much may come crashing down over your ears sometime.
3) you could go the terry pratchet/warhammer fantesy route of magic: it has to be constantly relearnt or the amount of effort for a spell is the same as acheived by normal means, so, a fireball will tire a caster down, and elongate the time between spells. meaning a magical user wouldnt be a juggernaught of death on his own bill, but terribly powerfull if a cast of aprentices or such forth supporting him.

their just ideas to knock magic off the pedistall of wins everything all the time. how magic is used i shall be interested to see what toady does. itll probably fit in best with the religious arc i would think. all those ceramonies etc.

[Neonivek]

If magic is viewed as just another ranged weapon, we won't even think twice about it

But the question is why is that a bad thing? Why is using magic as your focus for your attack a terrible thing?

There is a point where your turning magic into modern art. New showy but signifying nothing. That is bad!

[malimbar04]

If magic is viewed as just another ranged weapon, we won't even think twice about it

But the question is why is that a bad thing? Why is using magic as your focus for your attack a terrible thing?

There is a point where your turning magic into modern art. New showy but signifying nothing. That is bad!

Magic the focus of your attack isn't bad by itself. What is bad is when magic is no longer mysterious, special, or in any way magical. There is no reason to think highly or lowly of a magic user if the entire effect is exactly the same as an archer.
 
Think of the game Gauntlet. A wizard, barbarian, fighter, and archer are all exactly the same with different models.

[Bronimin]

-

[Nighthawk]

I would personally like to see an invisible Mana bar, determining how often you can cast, and how powerful your casts will be, along with an invisible Magic level, so you cannot see when you are, say, only dabbling magician. If you draw more power than you have Mana left, you die. No getting tired, exausted. you die. It would encourage users, i think, to be cautios, It may well be pwoerful, but trying to do too much can kill you.

That's a little serious for a punishment, don't you think? There should at least be some signs before you die, such as drowsiness. It doesn't make sense for the character to not be able to tell when he's going to die. Don't you think that your character should know when he/she is running out of strength, rather than just dropping dead on the spot? That would be cruel. Of course, DF is famous for its cruelty.