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Author Topic: D-PRIME  (Read 3365 times)

Virex

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Re: D-PRIME
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2010, 03:51:01 pm »

and for a D19?
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bowdown2q

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Re: D-PRIME
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2010, 03:52:36 pm »

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Re: D-PRIME
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2010, 04:02:14 pm »

Absolute worst case, use a normal die, excess numbers are rerolled.


We must write a system for this! Who is with me?

I was thinking something where instead of adding bonuses to your rolls you would use a larger dice instead. Of course, they would have to be prime numbered dice. If you roll a number that can be factorised then you factorise it and choose the highest prime factor as your final roll. This would stop boring situations, with high or low rolls being very unlikely and it would end up with very dramatic gameplay.
I'd love to, but I'm busy with just about everything else. :(

I agree with larger dice rather than bonuses, but don't like discarding all your other factors. If you end up using all of the number you roll, higher numbers are still ostensibly good, just not necessarily as good as a single super-high roll; but on the other hand, if there's several things you want to do, rolling a prime screws you over. If you just take the highest factor, the linear progression of the numbers means nothing; you can't just say "I want to roll high" because you don't want to roll high, you want to roll a number with the lowest factor possible. 8 is better than 9, 5 and 10 are identical, and other weirdness.
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bowdown2q

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Re: D-PRIME
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2010, 05:35:21 pm »

Alright, let's see.
Default for a stat is D5.

Let's say you're attacking. You roll a 3. You now attack with 3 vs your opponent's defense. If he rolls 1 or 2, you hit and deal (2 or 1) damage. If he rolls a 4, though, you hit him for 1 and he gets to riposte for 2.


OH HEEEYYY....
IDEA.
You get 1 option for your atk rolls and 1 for def. (and 1 for whatever other rolls this game will have; could be awesome with magic)

Normal: you may select which factor you use as the primary.
Options: You must use at least 1 factor as the primary. You may forgo an option in order to use all factors as multiple primaries (e.g. you may choose not to counter-attack in order to block multiple attacks, or to not to dervish in order to make multiple attacks against the target.)

Counter-Attack (block): when you roll a non-prime number when defending, you may use the extra factors as attacks, resolved after the triggering attack finishes.

Riposte (advanced counter, requires counter-attack): when you roll a non-prime number when defending, you may use the extra factors as attacks. These attacks are interspersed with the opponent's. You may forgo a riposte in order to block - ex. Your opponent rolls a 4, and you roll a 6. Your opponent makes an attack at 2 - which you doge (2). You then riposte with a 3. After your opponent blocks, he finishes his second attack at 2.

Dervish (attack): When you roll a non-prime number when attacking, you may use the extra factors as additional moves. You may choose the order of actions (e.g. you may move before and after your attack(s)).

Whirlwind (attack): When you roll a non-prime number when attacking, you may use the extra factors as additional attacks against (an) alternate target(s) in range.

Chain (magic attack): When you roll a non-prime number when attacking, you may use the extra factors as additional magic attacks against (an) alternate target(s) in range.  The range of the chain is equal to the factor used in the attack, as measured from the previous target. You may not target the same creature twice with a single chain.

and etc.  ...this is an awesome system. I'm going to brainstorm tonight and work out some mechanics...

Poll: should everyone have the option of Melee, Range, Spell, with a rock/paper/scisors thing going on there, or should I try to go for something more complicated?

Virex

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Re: D-PRIME
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2010, 05:37:50 pm »

5 and 10 are not the same, because with 10 you get a spare 2 to allocate somewhere. On the other hand, if low rolls are actually bad for you you'd be better off with a 5 anyway.


I propose the following fundamental rules:
General overview:
-Turns are simultaneous. At the beginning of a turn, each player announces his or her primary action. Then, when all primary actions have been decided, the players roll for those actions and the GM rolls for the actions of NPC's (If this is to be done in secrecy or not is as of yet up to the discretion of the GM, as is the question of NPC actions have to be announced, though that may change.)
-After this, each player takes one action, in the order he or she choses, until no player can take any more actions. For each of these action subrounds, the effects are applied simultaneously. Indirect results of these actions are evaluated after this.
(For example if a player would simultaneously take lethal damage and be healed, those effects happen at the same time and if the healing effect is strong enough the player survives because he or she doesn't die until after both actions have been applied. Similarly, if an effect would prevent a magic user from using spells, it can't prevent the spells cast in the same subround because the effects of both spells are applied simultaneously)
-The die rolled for each turn depends on the rolling players' skill with his or her primary action. Secondary actions do not factor into this, as they are decided later, though they may modify the result of the primary action. this is not a given though.


Rolling:
-When rolling, a roll has to be factored into at least 1 prime, but all 1's are discarded. The exact amount of factors can be chosen, within this constraint. So if you'd want to, you could factor 36 into 2, 2, 3 and 3, but 18 and 2 is also fine. 4 and 9 would not be because you need at least 1 prime. The only exception is if a player rolls a 1, in which case he automatically uses a 1 on his or her primary action and doesn't get to take any secondary actions.
-The highest factor has to be allocated to the primary action. Remaining factors can be used to do secondary actions.


Round structure:
-After all players have rolled for a round, they each announce how they will factor their rolls. After that, the first subround starts.
-At the beginning of a subround each player announces which action he or she will take and what factor he or she will use for this action. If a player doesn't have any factors left he or she will be idle by default during the subround. Some skills may alter the default action when a player doesn't have any factors left.
-When a player uses his or her primary action, he or she must announce this and used the highest factor he or she made during the round start for this action. Using the highest factor for secondary actions is not allowed.
-Any primary action can be used as a secondary action, but some actions are defined as secondary actions only (examples include parry some spells, attack-modifying skills and most attacks made with the second weapon of a duall-wielding character).
-As said, after the players have decided upon their actions for the subround, first the would-be results of these actions are determined, accounting for any dependencies such as between attack and parry. Then each of these actions is applied completely simultaneously. After the effects have been applied anything resulting from these and prior effects is applied (such as players dieing or poison or spells wearing off.) Then the next subround starts.


Note: I chose for simultaneous turns since with factoring there's a lot going on in a single turn and it would be rather annoying if you have to wait for the players before you to each make 3 or more moves when you're getting to the high die numbers. This way, at least all players can be active at the same time, unless someone rolls a prime and someone else rolls a 32 and decides to spend it on 5 magic missiles :P Anyway, this way the game can easily scale up to high numbers without becomming too cumbersome. At high levels, implying high die numbers, secondary actions become much more important because you're often getting a lot of them. On the other hand you can often factor the roll into 2 pieces, a high and a low one and use the high one for the primary and the low one for an unimportant secondary action. There should also be some safeguards to prevent a player from getting instagibbed by an NPC that rolled 97 for an attack.


Edit: Ninja'ed.


Anyway, I think the use of ranged and melee attacks should be determined by the equipment and skills of the players. Perhaps there should be non-factored actions that take a subround but always succeed, such as moving or switching weapons. That way you could take shoot crossbow as your primary, then first shield bass your opponent as a secondary, switch to your crossbow and shoot at him. Of course, if you roll a prime, you'll have to change to your crossbow, wasting a subround, and then fire, possibly while still in melee. On the other hand, you're likely to get a high factor for your shot (though if you rolled a 2 you're screwed)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 05:49:47 pm by Virex »
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bowdown2q

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Re: D-PRIME
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2010, 06:10:03 pm »

Hm...
I think the simultaneous actions are a little confusing. I've always seen that fall apart at a tabletop, at least....
IT does give an idea... ever play Legend of Legia, or a similar jprg? The turn sequence is: pick actions for all chars, then carry out in initiative order. It preserves the uncertainty of the simultaneous turns, while allowing for a more strategic approach, and it's much easier to figure out order of resolution this way.

I think I like the "at least 1 prime number, but you don't have to use all primes" idea. It does let it scale much better to higher dice... like the d97 O_o. 
I'm on the fence about the 'highest prime for primary action' rule. I think you should be allowed to decide.

I think this game needs to be fairly structured; it's a lot harder to arbitrate than d20, so if somebody asked me "can I play an [X]?" I might just flat-out say "no, pick from the list." Esp. with combat - I don't think arbitrating "I want to swing on the chandelier and kick him" is gonna be as easy as in any other game.

I'm kina feeling a jrpg-vibe here....

I'm going to work up some char-sheet stuff and be back with it as soon as ive got a basis.

monk12

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Re: D-PRIME
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2010, 10:26:58 pm »

postin in ridiculous thread!

As far as the discussion...

I think the idea of a variable initiative system would be interesting. Essentially, you could use any and all dice available to move up in the initiative order. Players you pass can elect to challenge you by using one of their available dice to cut you off. You may not use this technique to gain more than one turn in an initiative pass.

What I'd like to see are ideas for how dice are selected. Would this be a Shadowrun style thing, where every action is linked to a Stat, or Stat + Skill? It would probably be handy to have some method of trading in multiple dice for guaranteed hits...

Vector

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Re: D-PRIME
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2010, 11:48:05 pm »

Watching, because this is brilliant.
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Virex

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Re: D-PRIME
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2010, 09:47:43 am »

Hm...
I think the simultaneous actions are a little confusing. I've always seen that fall apart at a tabletop, at least....
IT does give an idea... ever play Legend of Legia, or a similar jprg? The turn sequence is: pick actions for all chars, then carry out in initiative order. It preserves the uncertainty of the simultaneous turns, while allowing for a more strategic approach, and it's much easier to figure out order of resolution this way.
That would work even better. It still prevents you from having to wait trough 12 actions, while simultaneously clearing up the order of things.

Quote
I think I like the "at least 1 prime number, but you don't have to use all primes" idea. It does let it scale much better to higher dice... like the d97 O_o. 
I'm on the fence about the 'highest prime for primary action' rule. I think you should be allowed to decide.
The reason for that rule was quite simple: When you roll a die for the turn you need smething to determine what die to roll. Easiest is to take the action youŽre going to take, hence the idea of primary actions and secondaty actions. However, if weŽd let the player decide you could get situations in which the player can roll a d17 for an attack and a d7 for spells. However, upon rolling the d17 he gets a 16, which can be factored into 2 and 8. Now if youŽd let him chose freely, he could cast a spell with an F8 (factor 8 ), even though there's no way for him to get an F8 for spell casting. This makes min/maxing much more potent since one action with a very high die can be used to power other actions for which you donŽt have a high die. You'll still have this to some extent (if a character rolls a 64 for an attack he can still get an F8 on spellcasting even if he normally has a D7) but it's far less pronounced.

Quote
I think this game needs to be fairly structured; it's a lot harder to arbitrate than d20, so if somebody asked me "can I play an [X]?" I might just flat-out say "no, pick from the list." Esp. with combat - I don't think arbitrating "I want to swing on the chandelier and kick him" is gonna be as easy as in any other game.
In such a case I'd say swinging on the chandelier is an action and kicking as well. If the player rolls a prime he makes a very pretty swing but forgets to kick at all, else he gets to decide which factor goes to the swing and which to the kick and if the swing is too low, he'd fall off the chandelier.


This does bring us to another point. Against what are we going to compare the factors? I'm inclined to just have static numbers to beat for every action. For some actions, beating the number means you succeed. This comes into play with for example lockpicking or casting spells with a static effect.
However, for actions with a variable effect, you subtract the value you're rolling against from the factor you're using and if it's positive you add that value to the base value of the action's effect. To prevent instagibs, each ability also has a max value and if you're over that you get a critical hit, which can differ from the normal effect.
For example, getting a critical hit with a sword may cause you to cripple an opponent in addition to dealing the max amount of damage. In theory this critical effect can have a min and a max value as well, but that can get complex so that should probably only be reserved for a small set of actions.

An additional option would be to have a max amount you're rolling against for some actions and that amount goes down each time a factor is applied to it. That way taking multiple small attacks could make sense because you're wearing down your opponent. I'm not sure in what way it'd work, but I was thinking about dividing the value by the roll against it and rounding it down. So if you're factoring against a defense of 12 and you roll 15 yourself, you'd factor it to 3 and 5, then first attack with the 5, meaning his defense drops to 2, and then attack with the 3, for a total of base damage + 1. Now the order doesn't matter if you're the only one attacking because you would've gotten exactly the same result if you had attacked with 3 first and then with 5. It changes however if more players are attacking the same target, because if you've worn down his defense then the mage that's casting 5 magic missiles with an F2 each can get the last 3 missiles in for base damage + 2.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 10:01:29 am by Virex »
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bowdown2q

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Re: D-PRIME
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2010, 10:44:17 am »

If running D&D4e games has taught me anything, its to make up numbers as you go, lol.  I think, actually, that having everything be opposed checks would be the easiest - picking a lock is against the locksmith's roll when he made it (and thus, is static, but it is derived from a roll and stats). As for unopposed checks - e.g. swinging from a chandelier - well, I'll just have to make up a nice little DC chart. Figure out whatever 50% success is on a d5 or a d7 and go from there.

I don't know about the instagib protection... I mean, to begin with, if you only have a defense of, say, a d7, you shouldn't be fighting anything that hits for d36. Besides. a max damage cap is boring as hell, even if it is from die to die. Players love to see their char do 8493 damage to the wolf with 8 hp.

That is getting into more math than one would expect... (given, primes, but that at least can be put into a table). I think flat subtraction is easier. Like -half or something. Or just -2 every time you defend (like shadowrun).  It'll depend on how that's done. As of now, I envision defense as an active roll, so reducing it based on the attack's power screws that up a little... loosing a die size each time might work, though.

I think we need to work out the base mechanics of stats now. I've got this other rpg system I've been working on forever, but I don't want to cross the streams here.  Suggestions before I get into it?

Omegastick

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Re: D-PRIME
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2010, 12:09:07 pm »

Here's an idea, how about we have each point in a skill move the skill up to the next d-prime. This could then make skills go on forever, getting much stronger each time. Say that rolls start on a d2 if there are no skills for it, having a skill level of five would bring it up to a d13, plus your attribute of two makes it d19. However, it is a difficult task, lowering the d-prime by two to d13 again.

However, this is beginning to sound incredibly complicated and like a simple move such as swing off a chandelier would take hours. It could be a fun system, though, seeing as how it would make for some really high numbers.
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Virex

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Re: D-PRIME
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2010, 12:29:54 pm »

That is getting into more math than one would expect... (given, primes, but that at least can be put into a table). I think flat subtraction is easier. Like -half or something. Or just -2 every time you defend (like shadowrun).  It'll depend on how that's done. As of now, I envision defense as an active roll, so reducing it based on the attack's power screws that up a little... loosing a die size each time might work, though.
You mean going down a prime? That could work but you've got the problem that with factoring you're quickly running into situations where you're getting factors that are on average, taken together, less then half of the max die size, while you sometimes get a high prime. This means that the defense either has to be rather high, in which case breaking trough is hard, or it's rather low, in which case rolling a high prime has pretty painful effects. Remember that for example a D37 has only a 4 in 37 chance of rolling above 20 and an 12 in 37 chance of getting a value over 10 for your highest factor.
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bowdown2q

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Re: D-PRIME
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2010, 12:44:11 pm »

Point. Hm.... I'll put some more thought into this later..

Virex

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Re: D-PRIME
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2010, 01:03:29 pm »

Hmm, did some more thinking about going down primes. It takes only 8 attacks to take someone down from d37 to d11... I propose the following:

-Whenever someone is attacked, his or her defense goes down a 'level', with each level being a prime, irregardless of if the attack actually broke trough the defense. At the end of a turn, everyone regenerates a certain amount of defense levels, based upon his stats and skills.

This way you can wear down opponents (or not if you get low rolls and they regenerate fast) even if you're with a small party and they have a high base defense. Added bonus is that getting lots of factors can be just as important as getting 1 high factor.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 01:17:01 pm by Virex »
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Virex

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Re: D-PRIME
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2010, 06:55:41 pm »

Update!
I've been working on a rules document for this, and I think I'm about 1/3 done with the core. Here's the link so you guys can spot any problems early and fix them: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ra0bauowhebrxz7
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