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[Vector]

Sure, it'd be a wonderful world if we could start as just friends and have it slowly grow into something more, but women are virtually never sexually interested in a guy they consider their friend, and you can't have a romantic relationship without sexual attraction.

Maybe it's that if a woman has spent enough time with a guy to consider him a friend, she's realized that he's probably not very good for her, no dating required.

I know that I personally considered all the guys (... and girls) I was friends with, and never dated most of them because I knew it wouldn't work.  Not because I wasn't attracted to them at any point, but because it wasn't going to work, period, and there was no point in screwing around with someone when I already knew the final outcome.

The one guy I did end up dating I was semi-friends with.  Unfortunately, I didn't have the social acumen back then to recognize his bad traits inside or outside of the relationship, but it wasn't like I would have run off and dated any of my friends if they'd shown up as random guys who were interested in me.  Simply put, they wouldn't have passed the screening process no matter what they did.

So, from my perspective, there is no "Yeah, we became friends and because of that I didn't get to screw her."  It's more like "she got to know me away from the social pressures of dating and pre-selected against me."


I guess the question is this: do you want someone to have sex with and date, or do you want someone who knows you and, despite that, elects to have sex with and date you?

Dunno about you guys.  I'd much rather date a friend than someone I didn't know.

[Ephemeriis]

Sure, it'd be a wonderful world if we could start as just friends and have it slowly grow into something more, but women are virtually never sexually interested in a guy they consider their friend, and you can't have a romantic relationship without sexual attraction.

If you just want to get laid - fine.

If you want an actual, lasting relationship - try being friends first.

If you can't start out as friends and then grow into something sexual, you aren't going to last.  Because I garontee you the friendship (or lack there-of) will out-weigh the sex over time.

Which isn't to say that the sex slows down, or goes bad, or anything like that.  But you need to have something to do/say when you aren't actually fucking.

Shared interests and friendship are great for that.

[Omegastick]

It isn't so much appalled at someone wanting to be friends with them, it's being appalled at someone wanting to be friends with them instead of being in a relationship.

Friendship is a relationship.

What you mean to say is that it isn't so much appalled at someone wanting to be friends with them, it's being apalled at someone not wanting to fuck them.

Sorry I worded that wrongly, I meant to say romantic relationship. Not a sex partner, many of my friends have been in relationships for a long time and never had sex with their current partner.

Also, Vector, I know you probably think that you're right because you've been through it all but I think that you are blatantly wrong in this case (no offence). Are you saying that every guy you think of as a potential partner can never be your friend? Doesn't it seem weird that none of your friends seem to be potential partners. I'm just saying that many girls think of guys as their friends when the guys think of the girls as someone they would want to date, and as such go about getting all infatuated and so on. This is what is called the 'friend zone', when a guy wants a girl and the girl just thinks of the guy as a 'friend'. From this position the guy seems a lot less like a potential lover and more like a good friend. Your post has just proved the 'friend zone' theory.

[Mindmaker]

There's actually something worse than being friendzoned.
Ever got kept 'on the hook'?

Normally the becoming friends and then growing into something more, is my prefered course of action.
You may however be taken advantage off.

[Argembarger]

One does typically watch their behavior closely and try to put forth the best first impression possible on a date. It's likely that dating before friendship leads to more romance because both parties are attracted to the "date-persona" of the other, without knowing any more about that person... It's a romantic relationship, yeah, but it's likely to end once you actually get to know each other.

And if sex is all you're after to begin with, well, then you aren't looking for a real relationship in the first place so what does it matter?

Although spending time with someone exclusively to have sex with them seems like the sleaziest, reprehensible thing imaginable, unless they are also looking for that kind of thing, then yay nymphomania party

tl;dr: what vector, ephemeriis and mindmaker said.

[sonerohi]

Nympho parties are the best parties.

[Vector]

Also, Vector, I know you probably think that you're right because you've been through it all but I think that you are blatantly wrong in this case (no offence).

I haven't been through it all, dude, and I don't pretend to know everything.  The only thing I know about is my own personal habits, which I am fairly certain I know more about than you.

Just a reminder: I've only been in one relationship.  It didn't get very far.  It was something of a train wreck.

Are you saying that every guy you think of as a potential partner can never be your friend?

No, I'm saying that I make friends with people who would make terrible partners for me, and I'd never date someone I didn't know pretty well.  Period.  I'd hope to be friends with that person for several years before dating them, to tell the truth.

Doesn't it seem weird that none of your friends seem to be potential partners.

No, because they were potential partners and then, as I got to know them in a non-romantic atmosphere, I went "Hm, that would be a really bad idea, and we'd be at each other's throats in two months.  Let's not do this."

I mean, sure, I do consider them possible romantic partners... maybe in five years, once we've all had a chance to do some growing up?  As they are now, though, I don't think I'd date 'em.  They're the best approximations I have to people I would date, though.

Similarly, I may find myself incredibly attracted to someone, but if I wouldn't make friends with that person, then I also wouldn't date them.  I'd rather just sit there, going "that person is blazingly hot" and appreciate what I can appreciate about them, instead of hoping the hotness makes up for all the things I really don't like about the individual.

I'm just saying that many girls think of guys as their friends when the guys think of the girls as someone they would want to date, and as such go about getting all infatuated and so on. This is what is called the 'friend zone', when a guy wants a girl and the girl just thinks of the guy as a 'friend'.  From this position the guy seems a lot less like a potential lover and more like a good friend. Your post has just proved the 'friend zone' theory.

Yeah.  Not because we're friends.  Because a long-term relationship would have never worked with the guy, anyway.

The friendzone theory, as I understand it, is that a guy goes and tries to get closer to a girl.  The girl spends time with the guy and realizes that he isn't the one for her, just as she would have if she'd dated him for a while first.  Then they end up friends.

So, in one scenario, the guy doesn't get in the girl's pants, even briefly, but he does get a friendship.  In the other case, you have the emotional stress of a failed relationship, coupled with no friendship, combined with a lot of stress on the woman's half about getting dumped (i.e. losing social standing) if she doesn't "put out"--or, if she does have relations with the guy, potential-pregnancy-stress.

Seriously, man, wouldn't you play it safe?


I dunno.  My feeling is that a lot of guys here tend to go "Oh man, can't get friendzoned, bro."  Well, if your interest is in sex, then yes--definitely don't let the girl get to know anything about who you really are, because you'll have a much better chance if she's thinking with her hormones.  Blaze with testosterone!  Seduce that woman!  But if you want a long-lasting relationship, then in most cases you'll probably be better off getting to actually know about each other first--and if that means she decides against you, then tough cookies.  There are in fact other women out there.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

All of this stuff over the last few pages is why I avoid romantic and platonic relationships. I'm not certain why any person in their right mind would persue somthing so doomed to horrible failure far more often than not.

[Dasleah]

Because it's worth it.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

So people say, but what I see is a rising divorce rate, and even more people who stay in unhappy marriages because they don't consider divorce acceptable. I see people who let their friends drag them down and ruin their lives. I see highschool drama that I must watch happen around me every single day by people who don't really care anything about each other, just mutually looking for sex. I see people who let others limit them, "because that's what you're supposed to do". I see somthing, that is for all intents and purposes, worthless.

I've never been in a romantic relationship, and I've only ever made a few friends over the years, so perhaps I'm just missing some amazing point to all this suffering. I've always been perfectly content and happy being alone in my personal life, not having to deal with others, and I don't see any reason to think changing that would make me any happier.

[G-Flex]

All of this stuff over the last few pages is why I avoid romantic and platonic relationships. I'm not certain why any person in their right mind would persue somthing so doomed to horrible failure far more often than not.

So... you never do anything that requires trying more than once, then?

Also, how the hell do you "avoid platonic relationships"? Do you never have friends?

So people say, but what I see is a rising divorce rate, and even more people who stay in unhappy marriages because they don't consider divorce acceptable. I see people who let their friends drag them down and ruin their lives. I see highschool drama that I must watch happen around me every single day by people who don't really care anything about each other, just mutually looking for sex. I see people who let others limit them, "because that's what you're supposed to do". I see somthing, that is for all intents and purposes, worthless.

I've never been in a romantic relationship, and I've only ever made a few friends over the years, so perhaps I'm just missing some amazing point to all this suffering. I've always been perfectly content and happy being alone in my personal life, not having to deal with others, and I don't see any reason to think changing that would make me any happier.

You're calling several of the foundations of human social behavior "worthless". Good luck with that. You'll need it. Very, very, very few people are happy really being alone in their lives. If you're one of those people, great, but you don't exactly sound well-adjusted about it.

I've had my handful of failed romantic relationships, and problems with friends of mine as well. Do I still think it's worth it? Yes, because the success matters.

I see highschool drama that I must watch happen around me every single day by people who don't really care anything about each other, just mutually looking for sex.

Then try not to be one of those people. The rest of us deal with it, and so can you.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

So... you never do anything that requires trying more than once, then?

I'm not certain how that's related, but no.

Also, how the hell do you "avoid platonic relationships"? Do you never have friends?

Nope, not a friend in the world, besides some old friends whom I haven't spoken with in years.

You're calling several of the foundations of human social behavior "worthless". Good luck with that. You'll need it. Very, very, very few people are happy really being alone in their lives. If you're one of those people, great, but you don't exactly sound well-adjusted about it.

What about me doesn't sound well adjusted, exactly?

I've had my handful of failed romantic relationships, and problems with friends of mine as well. Do I still think it's worth it? Yes, because the success matters.

So that's it for you then? You go through turmoil and trauma all for the sake of "winning" at your relationships? Sounds like a hollow success to me.

I see highschool drama that I must watch happen around me every single day by people who don't really care anything about each other, just mutually looking for sex.

Then try not to be one of those people. The rest of us deal with it, and so can you.

There's nothing to "deal with" there. It's just a statement about stupid teenage outlooks on what they believe to be love.

[G-Flex]

Pretend they're men.

...and end up with a female friend rather than a girlfriend. Not that there's anything wrong with female friends, but sometimes a guy just wants more.

You missed the point. The point is not to treat every woman as a potential sexual/romantic partner, instead opting to just treat them as if you're making another friend and seeing where that goes. Socializing with girls in a friendly manner that doesn't expect a sexual relationship does not mean you'll never get a relationship out of it. Hell, it's one of the better ways to do it, in my experience.

Sure, it'd be a wonderful world if we could start as just friends and have it slowly grow into something more, but women are virtually never sexually interested in a guy they consider their friend

Do you actually believe this rhetoric? Most of my good friends since high school have been girls, and I can emphatically tell you this is not the case, in my experience or theirs.

For that matter, why would that be true of girls and not guys?

Seriously, that's just a bullshit excuse a lot of guys use to 1) never engage any female socially except in pursuit of a relationship, 2) jump the gun like crazy before you even know the other person, in fear that actually knowing them in a friendly manner will mysteriously ruin your chances.

I've had my handful of failed romantic relationships, and problems with friends of mine as well. Do I still think it's worth it? Yes, because the success matters.

So that's it for you then? You go through turmoil and trauma all for the sake of "winning" at your relationships? Sounds like a hollow success to me.

I don't know what you mean by that. Life always has trauma and turmoil involved, but you do it because the good parts make it worth it. Relationships are no exception. I go through the bullshit to get at the stuff that isn't bullshit. I've had failed relationships, which has sucked, but as a result I'm a stronger, wiser, smarter person who is better equipped to handle relationships, leading to my current situation of being in a good one that makes me happy.

What about me doesn't sound well adjusted, exactly?

The fact that you're incapable of successfully forming natural, normal human relationships.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

What about me doesn't sound well adjusted, exactly?

The fact that you're incapable of successfully forming natural, normal human relationships.

I'm not incapable of forming relationships. I've had friends in the past, and I could have them now, but the fact of the matter is that it won't do anything at all to make my life better, and very well could make it worse. I've had interest in romantic relatonships with specific people several times, but I choose not to act upon it because such things are doomed to failure far more often than not. You know how you'll seriously come to believe that this girl you like is the only one for you and all that other self-deceptive bullshit? Try waiting it out for a week or so instead of making a knee-jerk reaction to try and start a relationship, and watch as your worthless infatuation crashes and burns. What you think is the world one day will have no value to you the next, and I try keep this in mind when making choices in my life.

I have always been fine being alone, and have absolutely no reason to change that. Why would I soil my personal life with the selfish infuences of others, when I can just keep to myself and end up better off?

[Vector]

Why would I soil my personal life with the selfish infuences of others, when I can just keep to myself and end up better off?

Possibly because that action is intrinsically far, far more selfish than that of the individuals around you.