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Author Topic: Outstanding bugs in 0.31.16  (Read 10704 times)

Warskull

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Re: Outstanding bugs in 0.31.16
« Reply #75 on: October 20, 2010, 05:04:57 am »

I have read scurrilous rumours that the developer of Minecraft has over half a million dollars in his bank account. Of course I'm sure that this is just rubbish, but if it's true then there is no justice. I would support the idea that 3.16 would become the last version that is free with donations and future versions require a ten dollar / pound purchase fee. Nobody can convince me that this game is no worth ten quid of your money. I'm sure that initially nobody would switch to newer versions, but eventually as new features and bug fixes are added, many people would make the jump.

He has way more than half a million now.  When Paypal froze his account there was around 700,000 euros in it, that was from one week of sales.  He's still pulling 300,000 euros a week.  What is wrong with that though?  Minecraft is an excellent game and surprisingly well polished for an alpha.  Notch, minecraft's creator, earned that money and deserves it.

I'm don't think Dwarf Fortress could pull the same success charging for the game at this point.  It is quite buggy, the interfaces are complex and unintuitive, and the game is very difficult to learn.  Part of what makes Minecraft sell so well and what makes it great is how easy it is to get into.  You punch a tree, get some wood, craft a few items, and you are on your way.  A game with this steep a learning curve doesn't catch on or spread as fast.  Dwarf Fortress is scary to many people.
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ildamos

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Re: Outstanding bugs in 0.31.16
« Reply #76 on: October 20, 2010, 11:44:29 am »

Quote
A game with this steep a learning curve doesn't catch on or spread as fast.  Dwarf Fortress is scary to many people.

No sane game development company out for bucks will produce something out of this complexity. This is why I thank Toady for making this.

The reason why I took to RTSs way back when Warcraft reared its head was because of the opportunity to arrange living quarters in what I deemed to be "cozy" for my army while also providing them ease of access and all that. Sadly, I learned much later that RTSs were more of cookie-cutter builds than arranging structures. Tower defense games then filled that gap for me but only for so much.

This game however, this game answers what I have been looking for all these years.

When Toady finishes this and cleans up all the bugs I plan to make a donation.
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Nameless Archon

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Re: Outstanding bugs in 0.31.16
« Reply #77 on: October 21, 2010, 02:42:35 pm »

I have read scurrilous rumours that the developer of Minecraft has over half a million dollars in his bank account. Of course I'm sure that this is just rubbish, but if it's true then there is no justice.
I wouldn't doubt it. If you enjoy building things, but haven't played it, you're doing yourself a disservice. It's simplistic, but the game is surprisingly enjoyable.

The major difference? Minecraft is feature poor, but mostly bug free - people are willing to bet that additional features are coming, because past development has demonstrated that they are coming, and that they'll work well when they arrive.

Dwarf Fortress has lots of features, but there are bugs EVERYWHERE. We don't have to bet that there are more features coming because Toady's dev blog tells us what he's working on, but whether they'll ever truly be fixed and stable and working as intended is pretty much anyone's guess. Toady finds bugfixing boring and frustrating (so do I), but people won't buy a product that doesn't work well, and DF works... somewhat.

Folks, I loves me some DF, and this is one of those games I'd like to be able to recommend to people, but the number of issues present in the codebase (soap, cleaning, FPS to name three that come up without hitting the bug tracker to find more) are not hard to find even for a new player. The interface is clunky and uncomfortable to navigate without memorizing the keyboard-shortcuts menu system. Systems are implemented haphazardly, and additions to little-used areas of the game, like Adventure Mode, don't encourage me to donate money to Toady in the slightest. If I wanted Adventure Mode curses games, I'd play Angband. If I wanted bugs, I'd buy from EA. 

What I want is the richness and complexity I can see buried in DF, but without the game-eating bugs and head-scratching frustrations of all the systems that simply Do. Not. Work. or that work only when you apply micromanagement workarounds to force things down a path that should be automatic (like plaster casts requiring you to micromanage bucket-filling to work).

Quote
I would support the idea that 3.16 would become the last version that is free with donations and future versions require a ten dollar / pound purchase fee. Nobody can convince me that this game is no worth ten quid of your money.
See, here's the rub. I don't have to convince you that the game isn't worth ten quid of your money. You're going to have to convince me that it IS. It may be, down the road, but right now, it's hard to see the game getting itself into a truly 'good' state in a reasonable timeframe, and that's a pretty good reason for me not to spend money on it. People donate for minecraft because the game is accessible, fun, and the development is (mostly) bug free - and fast.

I can't claim this about DF. The game is not accessible, and while I find the built-in complexity fun, it's not for the faint of heart. It's certainly not mostly bug free, and development is progressing down a path (adventure mode) that I find so undesirable I'd rather copulate with elves in a magma shower. It's not a good way to solicit my money for future development. If Toady wants to add more features and spice up adventure mode instead of fixing bugs, that's certainly his choice to make, but where I spend my cash is my choice, and it's not going to be on DF in its current state.

(Maybe someday...)

I enjoy playing DF, but in its present state, if Toady were to make payment a requirement, I'd turn my back on it and walk away. It needs a lot of love before it would be worth my money, and the new features always seem to have as many bugs as they do new fun things to play with.

Notch, minecraft's creator, earned that money and deserves it.
This. Folks, Minecraft is playable (if somewhat simplistic) in its current form, so people are paying for it to get in on the ground floor, and because they've been told that it's a limited time offer with an increased price for late adopters. If Toady wants to pull a similar move, I'd be all for it, but there'd have to be a huge round of bugfixing to get the game into a state where the current feature set works enough to make it worth paying for, IMO, and until that's done it'd be a fools' move to try to make the jump to a pay-for-play system.

Am I demanding that Toady drop everything and fix bugs, because everyone knows that Toady is just a bitch to be abused by his playerbase? Nope. DF is his baby, and he can encrust it with gems, or dump it in magma all he likes. I am, however, suggesting that for this game in its current state (or even as it probably will be after the next 3-6 months) it's not worth much, if anything, to a large proportion of gamers. Folks willing to put in the kind of work DF players do for their fun are few and far between nowadays, and trying to trade on the donations and purchases of that group with the game in its current state is going to make for slim pickings.
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jei

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Re: Outstanding bugs in 0.31.16
« Reply #78 on: October 22, 2010, 07:59:06 am »

So basically if you don't follow a list of arcane rules that are never clearly stated, your FPS will go into the toilet.  Well boy, that sure sounds like great management of data to me, I'll just go ahead and retract any complaints about it since I can work around it by discarding entire sections of gameplay,  carefully micromanaging things that are supposed to work automatically, and throwing away the sound.

Dropping the sarcasm dial back a bit, sorry.  If you have to follow all those guidelines to have a fort that doesn't hit single-digit FPS within 10 ingame years, then there's already problems with the management of data.  If the only way to get decent FPS (Anything above 20 frames a second) is to micromanage everything, then the code has problems.

BLASPHEMY! Burn the infidel with magma! -- You just need to learn to enjoy the single digit FPS and be happy with it, like we have. Or wait 10 years to get a quantum computer.
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Engraved on the monitor is an exceptionally designed image of FPS in Dwarf Fortress and it's multicore support by Toady. Toady is raising the multicore. The artwork relates to the masterful multicore support by Toady for the Dwarf Fortress in midwinter of 2010. Toady is surrounded by dwarves. The dwarves are rejoicing.

jei

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Re: Outstanding bugs in 0.31.16
« Reply #79 on: October 22, 2010, 08:06:55 am »

Quote
A game with this steep a learning curve doesn't catch on or spread as fast.  Dwarf Fortress is scary to many people.
No sane game development company out for bucks will produce something out of this complexity. This is why I thank Toady for making this.
...
When Toady finishes this and cleans up all the bugs I plan to make a donation.

I don't think that will be ever.

The massive complexity and bugs are one of the biggest reasons why open sourcing the game
would do it a huge favor by bringing in tons of bughunters who will fix them for free.

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Engraved on the monitor is an exceptionally designed image of FPS in Dwarf Fortress and it's multicore support by Toady. Toady is raising the multicore. The artwork relates to the masterful multicore support by Toady for the Dwarf Fortress in midwinter of 2010. Toady is surrounded by dwarves. The dwarves are rejoicing.

Darkmere

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Re: Outstanding bugs in 0.31.16
« Reply #80 on: October 22, 2010, 01:59:45 pm »


I don't think that will be ever.

The massive complexity and bugs are one of the biggest reasons why open sourcing the game
would do it a huge favor by bringing in tons of bughunters who will fix them for free.

The fact is something like open-sourcing has already been tried, and the first thing that happened (as I understand it) was the code got stolen/used/ripped off? into another project trying to cash in on DF.

Even ignoring that, you'd have a bunch of different custom versions that likely wouldn't work together (or at all), creating tons of confusion for community and succession games. Impractical.

And even if that wasn't the case, assuming everyone did in fact have noble intentions and immediately fixes everything that's wrong, no two people will will likely have the same solution, and someone will have to fold the "best" ones into the primary build. Toady then stops being the creator and becomes a project manager, which isn't what he wants to do.

Look at successful freeware releases vs open-source community projects (speaking strictly of games now):

Doomsday engine: 10 years and still going, made by less than 5 people, depending on who you count as developers.
Kingdom of Loathing: 5 years-ish, developed by 2-4 people at different times, mostly done by Jick/Skullhead.
The Ur-Quan Masters: 7-10 people, with various minor contributors who code the installers and such.
And now projects that are functionally complete with more than 15 active developers:

...??

I honestly can't find any, feel free to correct me if you have examples.
Keep in mind Ur-Quan masters had a readily defined goal of making a functional copy of StarCon2, so there was a set design template to be followed closely.

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Quietust

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Re: Outstanding bugs in 0.31.16
« Reply #81 on: October 22, 2010, 02:09:29 pm »

Look at successful freeware releases vs open-source community projects (speaking strictly of games now):

Doomsday engine: 10 years and still going, made by less than 5 people, depending on who you count as developers.
Kingdom of Loathing: 5 years-ish, developed by 2-4 people at different times, mostly done by Jick/Skullhead.
The Ur-Quan Masters: 7-10 people, with various minor contributors who code the installers and such.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but Kingdom of Loathing doesn't belong in that list - it's web-based and completely closed-source.
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Sowelu

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Re: Outstanding bugs in 0.31.16
« Reply #82 on: October 22, 2010, 02:19:19 pm »

I think that's the point, which ties in to what I said myself earlier:  Small, closed-source games are awesome.  Every single open-source, open-contributor game is terrible.  Unless you really, really like Tux Racer...

Also, jei, there is an "Edit" button.
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Quietust

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Re: Outstanding bugs in 0.31.16
« Reply #83 on: October 22, 2010, 04:06:47 pm »

I think that's the point, which ties in to what I said myself earlier:  Small, closed-source games are awesome.  Every single open-source, open-contributor game is terrible
My point was that while Doomsday engine and Ur-Quan Masters aren't open-contributor, they are open-source, which makes them fundamentally different from KoL (and Dwarf Fortress, which is also closed-source).
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xellas84

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Re: Outstanding bugs in 0.31.16
« Reply #84 on: October 22, 2010, 04:19:35 pm »

Quote
A game with this steep a learning curve doesn't catch on or spread as fast.  Dwarf Fortress is scary to many people.
No sane game development company out for bucks will produce something out of this complexity. This is why I thank Toady for making this.
...
When Toady finishes this and cleans up all the bugs I plan to make a donation.

I don't think that will be ever.

The massive complexity and bugs are one of the biggest reasons why open sourcing the game
would do it a huge favor by bringing in tons of bughunters who will fix them for free.

Yep Jei, still harping on that open source thing aren't ya?

We saw how well that worked last time, what with someone trying to start a full clone of DF and starve Toady out.  Open source = Multiple dev paths, incompatible versions, and even MORE bugs.

What Toady needs to do is get some trusted forumites to assist him with limited bug fixes, complete with a legally binding contract to protect his interests.  Or, you know, keep doing what he's doing now.
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Lord Darkstar

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Re: Outstanding bugs in 0.31.16
« Reply #85 on: October 22, 2010, 04:21:02 pm »

The reason why I took to RTSs way back when Warcraft reared its head was because of the opportunity to arrange living quarters in what I deemed to be "cozy" for my army while also providing them ease of access and all that. Sadly, I learned much later that RTSs were more of cookie-cutter builds than arranging structures. Tower defense games then filled that gap for me but only for so much.

This game however, this game answers what I have been looking for all these years.

When Toady finishes this and cleans up all the bugs I plan to make a donation.

Have you tried Dungeon Keeper (1 & 2), and Evil Genius? Very similar "base building" games. Definately in the genre.

You may also want to try to find StarTopia. It's a "base builder" set in abandoned giant donut space ships. Quite a lot of fun, even though you don't have the "Evil Genius/Dwarf Fortress" ability to create cunning traps. You build a starport, trade, manufacture, fight others doing the same thing, try to manage your work force. Worth hunting down if you like DF and want another base builder.
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Lord Darkstar

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Re: Outstanding bugs in 0.31.16
« Reply #86 on: October 22, 2010, 04:28:12 pm »

WAIT A SECOND--- what version of DF was open sourced? And who is this scum I need to run over with my car if he is ever crossing the street in front of me?
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learn to give consolations to frustrated people
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Quietust

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Re: Outstanding bugs in 0.31.16
« Reply #87 on: October 22, 2010, 04:43:35 pm »

I'm pretty sure it was never open sourced - rather, it was my collection that it was reverse-engineered from a disassembly and then mostly reimplemented. There was a discussion somewhere on these forums, but I don't remember where (or if they're even still there; it's possible the discussion was deleted).

[edit] I believe this thread is relevant.
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Lord Darkstar

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Re: Outstanding bugs in 0.31.16
« Reply #88 on: October 22, 2010, 04:52:13 pm »

Thanks! I remember reading that someone tried imitating it. And I remember reading about Toady being reluctant to add team members due to past stuff, but hadn't heard of any actual open source releases.
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learn to give consolations to frustrated people
What is this, a therapy session? We don't need to console someone because they're upset about a fucking video game. Grow a beard, son, and take off those elf ears!

xellas84

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Re: Outstanding bugs in 0.31.16
« Reply #89 on: October 22, 2010, 05:19:56 pm »

Ahh my mistake.  Though in a way that's even worse, since he didn't even have the excuse of "it was open source" to go on, he just plain tried to STEAL it.

In any case, I can't see open sourcing this code working any better.
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