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[petersohn]

I'm wondering if some bugs that were present in .12 are still present in .16 or not. In particular:
- Ammo bug: dwarves use up ammo designatd for combat for training, and they refuse to pick up ammo stored in stockpiles/bins
- Soap bug
- Gypsum plaster bug

Are any of these fixed, at least partially?

[petersohn]

Bump.Nobody knows?

[BigJake]

Don't see em in the release notes.  You're outta luck on that count.

[Sphalerite]

- Soap bug

Still unchanged.  Soap stored in a hospital will be used to clean wounds.  Soap stored outside a hospital will cause job cancellation spam as dwarves will try to use the soap to clean themselves and become confused.

Don't know about the other two bugs.

[Quietust]

All still unfixed. There are dozens of other significant bugs which Toady apparently thinks are less important than adding new features to the game. To name a few:

* Foreign units lose their position when they leave the map, resulting in a new liaison every year and Human law-givers only visiting your fortress once in their entire life
* Artifacts made from bone have no decorations at all
* Dwarves are never given crutches when they need them, leaving them in the hospital forever
* The Outpost Liaison won't appoint (or promote) a baron unless the entire meeting is delayed until the caravan has left the map
* There are no immigrant nobles - dungeon master, tax collector, and hammerer never show up and cannot be appointed.
* Elves don't have diplomats, so they can't impose tree cutting quotas (they were only able to do so in 0.31.12 and earlier due to another bug which has since been fixed)
* Some military data seemingly is not initialized, so saving one fort and loading another can result in crashes or bogus squads/orders
* Dwarves in surgery on a table are treated as requiring rescue
* Glass has uninitialized sharpness, making it useless for trap weapons
* Human and dwarven merchants never bring wagons
* Dwarves with worn out clothes will claim new clothes but will never actually put them on
* Magma heats up creatures way too slowly, often causing them to bleed to death or drown instead of burning up

[rntrndrw]

Seems like a lot of people are playing .12 and refusing to update to .16.

Are there any really big gameplay changes between the two?

Im thinking about installing .12.

[BigJake]

The only real reason to play .12 over .16 is that stonesense and a couple other utilities haven't been updated yet.  If those are important to you, stick with .12, otherwise you may as well upgrade if only for bone stockpiles (huzzah!).

[KaguroDraven]

Quietust I think the magma is on purpose, to give miner's and such a chance to actuilly get a way from magma if they open it up.

[Quietust]

Quietust I think the magma is on purpose, to give miner's and such a chance to actuilly get a way from magma if they open it up.

Do you seriously think Toady intended to make a magma bath survivable? The way it is right now, a totally naked dwarf with sufficient Swimming skill in Arena mode can jump into a pool of magma, take one step, then climb out completely unharmed - in real life, touching magma even for a fraction of a second would result in horrific burns, and being totally submerged even for a moment would almost certainly be lethal.

[KaguroDraven]

Well of course not that badly, but I think, and  I could be incredibly wrong here >.>, that the intention was to give atleast a few seconds of survival time for miners and such, but it didn't work out right. It's not as major a bug as some of the other ones either way.

[smjjames]

Don't forget the farming issues. Those have yet to be fixed or looked at.

Ironically, Toady just worked on aboveground farming.

[Psieye]

Quietust I think the magma is on purpose, to give miner's and such a chance to actuilly get a way from magma if they open it up.

Do you seriously think Toady intended to make a magma bath survivable? The way it is right now, a totally naked dwarf with sufficient Swimming skill in Arena mode can jump into a pool of magma, take one step, then climb out completely unharmed - in real life, touching magma even for a fraction of a second would result in horrific burns, and being totally submerged even for a moment would almost certainly be lethal.

Even before you touch the magma, you'd be suffering burns just by being near copious amounts of it. While we can ignore that detail and say "dwarves are hardy enough to shrug off the really hot temperatures near magma", certainly we can't have magma damage the way it currently is. Bleeding from touching it I can attribute to the skin having been wrecked with no causterisation to stop the flow of blood leaking out, but drowning is just... one of those DF bugs with a fun quirk that we ultimately can't leave unfixed.

[smjjames]

Quietust I think the magma is on purpose, to give miner's and such a chance to actuilly get a way from magma if they open it up.

Do you seriously think Toady intended to make a magma bath survivable? The way it is right now, a totally naked dwarf with sufficient Swimming skill in Arena mode can jump into a pool of magma, take one step, then climb out completely unharmed - in real life, touching magma even for a fraction of a second would result in horrific burns, and being totally submerged even for a moment would almost certainly be lethal.

Even before you touch the magma, you'd be suffering burns just by being near copious amounts of it. While we can ignore that detail and say "dwarves are hardy enough to shrug off the really hot temperatures near magma", certainly we can't have magma damage the way it currently is. Bleeding from touching it I can attribute to the skin having been wrecked with no causterisation to stop the flow of blood leaking out, but drowning is just... one of those DF bugs with a fun quirk that we ultimately can't leave unfixed.

The main thing is that there is no heat convection in DF. Otherwise nothing organic would be able to survive being right next to magma.

[Quietust]

The main thing is that there is no heat convection in DF. Otherwise nothing organic would be able to survive being right next to magma.

In previous versions, magma heated all surrounding tiles to 10100 (132°F) which is what triggers the "warm stone" indication. In version 0.31.xx, though, fat has a melting point of 10078 (110°F) which is what caused some of the acid rain problems (specifically the one where you get creatures wet and then lead them through a passage that's been heated from below by magma), so Toady changed magma to only heat surrounding tiles to 10075.

Currently, magma makes creatures bleed to death not because of skin damage but because it melts all of their fat off, and melted fat is apparently treated the same as limb amputation, causing heavy bleeding. Really large creatures (like elephants or giants) have so much blood in them that the fat melting doesn't kill them - after a while, they will stop bleeding; however, after another fairly long period of time (around 10 seconds at 100fps) they will heat up enough that they will catch fire and subsequently "burn to death" or "die in the heat".

In short: temperature transfer is completely and utterly broken - for all I know, it's probably ignoring the magnitude of the temperature difference and instead just seeing that there's a difference at all.

[fyy0r]

* Dwarves in surgery on a table are treated as requiring rescue

haha, was wondering why they would keep picking them up and putting them back on the bed.