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[Eiba]

First off, this is not a joke topic.

I was thinking of putting this under bug reports, but I figured... Well I figured I had no idea what the hell was going on. Dwarf Fortress wasn't running when it happened...

Exposition: So I'm shutting down my computer, but bizarrely as I try to save a MS word document my computer freezes. Concerned about the fate of said document, I reboot, only to stop at a screen that says: "Realtek RTL8110S/8169S Gigabit Boot Agent
Press Shift-F10 to configure .........."
I see this screen all the time when booting up, but now it's not moving past it, it's just sitting there with a flashing "_" next to the last period letting me know that it's not frozen.

Enter my brilliant technical skills, when faced with a problem I reset my computer. When that problem is that my computer isn't resetting properly, I reset a whole bunch of times in rapid succession.

This is when things get weird, at about the seventh try, I get an odd screen. I find it so very odd that I bumble about and find my cell phone with a camera in it to take a picture... it's not that clear though:
   
It's that same screen I mentioned earlier, but the periods are covered over by a blue box, and in that box...
   
Now this is a very bad picture, but here's a close-up on a few of those symbols:
   
It's fuzzy, but I know for a fact what I saw: A dwarf. It's a bloody dwarf from dwarf fortress! Judging by its shading and coloring it's a champion too... It's standing next to the letter t and a heart (dimple cup?), to its right a bit (not shown) is a spade (plum helmet?)...

I'm rather bewildered at this point, and after taking the pictures try again my patented computer fixing strategy and reset it again, but this time...
   
Again it's a bad picture, but the screen is covered in dwarves, as well as elephants (or elves) this time, and saguaro cacti, and levers, and buckets, and elven cities, and mechanisms, and beds, and equipment and to top it off a third of them are flashing... Why a third!? Why aren't they all flashing, or none of them or half of them? A third?

I take that picture quickly and in a panic reset again...

Perhaps in the weirdest turn of events of all... It works. My computer is now working fine.

So there's no urgency to my situation, but I would still like to know what the hell happened... Is Dwarf Fortress somehow messing with my system? Or are those just actual random ASCII characters, and just coincidentally were all the same ones used in Dwarf Fortress? Does stuff like this normally happen when things are totally screwed up?

[ March 30, 2007: Message edited by: Eiba ]

[ March 30, 2007: Message edited by: Eiba ]

[JT]

What you're seeing are random IBM-extended characters being printed from your bootup flash memory, which means that your computer's flash memory was corrupted somehow.  So it sounds to me like your BIOS is going.

I'm surprised it started working at all, though.  The last time I had a BIOS problem, I had to get a new motherboard and transplant my hard disc to another computer to back up my important data before doing a full system reformat.

There's also the possibility that you contracted a boot virus somehow, but it was designed for a different CPU architecture.  Now that AMD is more prevalent and uses a completely different proprietary machine code, Intel machine code doesn't work worth beans (note that Win32 code calls operating system functions, not machine code directly, and even assembly language is a much higher level compiled language than pure machine code).

[Toady One]

Yeah, note that I'm using a very old and traditional extended character set:

IBM CP 437

It's normal to see these when old-school things and problems happen on PCs (though JT understands what's going on waaaay better than I do).  A lot of the old text games used this code page.  The reason I'm using it is because I used it for all my old BASIC games from the 80s.

Anyway, I hope you get your computer fixed up.  I'm dreading the day this one goes...

[Jaqie Fox]

that is all ASCII.

*NEVER NEVER NEVER* hit reset like that unless you want to fry your system.  Every time you do that, you are playing russian roulette.

When your computer has a problem, turn it off by the ATX switch on the back by where the power plug is, wait 10 seconds, then turn it back on and use the normal power switch on the case to make it go to 'full on' mode from ATX 'software off' mode.  The reasons for this are technical.

~EDIT~
I actually had this post entirely made and forgot to post it for about two hours, whereupon when I posted it, I see others responded.

One problem with your assumption, JT.
That is a network PXE boot BIOS, not the system BIOS. Also, first hand experience has shown the assumption that the NVRAM is not always 'going'.  It could be anything from bad/dirty power, to a dirty/soiled finger on the PCI bus, to the network card being rusted/oxidised/failing, to a simple incompatibility with the system, to unpredictable code execution due to your rapid mashing of the reset button.

~edit 2~
JT, you are mistaken about AMD and INTEL not being able to run the same machine code.  they are both x86 compatible, which is why we can run the same compiled executables. If they were not, you would have to have different compiled binaries for AMD and INTEL CPUs, a totally different code path... this *IS* the case with ATI versus NVIDIA video card chips, but *NOT* x86 PCs.  Additional information: Roller Coaster Tycoon was written almost entirely in machine code... and I play it natively on my AMD and INTEL machines.

~edit3~
A boot virus? you must be joking.  Boot virii do not write themselves into PXE boot BIOS, guy.  Stop trying to scare the OP.

~edit4~
My mistake, RCT was made in assembly.

[ March 31, 2007: Message edited by: Jaqie ]

[Chthon]

quote:Originally posted by Jaqie:
~edit 2~
JT, you are mistaken about AMD and INTEL not being able to run the same machine code.  they are both x86 compatible, which is why we can run the same compiled executables. If they were not, you would have to have different compiled binaries for AMD and INTEL CPUs, a totally different code path... this *IS* the case with ATI versus NVIDIA video card chips, but *NOT* x86 PCs.  Additional information: Roller Coaster Tycoon was written almost entirely in machine code... and I play it natively on my AMD and INTEL machines.

~edit4~
My mistake, RCT was made in assembly.

[/QB]

Actually, on the Machine code front, AMD and INTEL use the same main subset of machine code instructions making them x86 compatable, but both utilize different extended subsets of instructions.  This is one of the reasons why you have to build different motherboards to interface each.  The motherboard acts as an interface/translator for these instructions.  So both of you were both wrong and right.

[Eiba]

I honestly have no idea what anyone's talking about for the most part, though I understand it seems this isn't related to Dwarf Fortress... (I had my suspicion that was the case, especially as I don't even have the original dwarf fortress font anywhere on my computer outside of a zip file.)

quote:I'm surprised it started working at all, though. The last time I had a BIOS problem, I had to get a new motherboard and transplant my hard disc to another computer to back up my important data before doing a full system reformat.

It's funny, I just had an issue with my motherboard recently, and got a brand new one... Just a week ago...

quote:*NEVER NEVER NEVER* hit reset like that unless you want to fry your system. Every time you do that, you are playing russian roulette.

When your computer has a problem, turn it off by the ATX switch on the back by where the power plug is, wait 10 seconds, then turn it back on and use the normal power switch on the case to make it go to 'full on' mode from ATX 'software off' mode. The reasons for this are technical.

Ah, that's actually what I was doing!
Yeah, the actual reset button wasn't even working... Or at least it tends not to when things freeze up so I've gotten out of the habit of using it.

(Man, I'm feeling acutely techno-illiterate right now...)

[Chthon]

Eiba, it is possible to replace the bios on your motherboard.  Contact your motherboard manufacturer, and they should tell you who to contact for a new bios.  You will have to know the make and model of your motherboard too.

Replacing a bios is actually rather easy, they usually supply a tool to remove the old bios, and you insert the new one and then reset the settings and you're good to go.

[Slartibartfast]

quote:Originally posted by Chthon:
<STRONG>Eiba, it is possible to replace the bios on your motherboard.  Contact your motherboard manufacturer, and they should tell you who to contact for a new bios.  You will have to know the make and model of your motherboard too.

Replacing a bios is actually rather easy, they usually supply a tool to remove the old bios, and you insert the new one and then reset the settings and you're good to go.</STRONG>

Won't reseting the BIOS by removing the little BIOS battery thingey* for a few minutes and then reinserting it work just as well [and not waste time of contacting support, and if it works you can just download an updated BIOS from the internet]

*-notice how my use of the word "thingey" indicates my puny knowledge in the realm of hardware.

[Jaqie Fox]

Chthon:
If you looked more closely at my post I was talking about the x86 portion of the chip specifically. I am very acutely aware of the instruction extensions.  Ironically in newer AMD CPUs all of the intel extensions are emulated (perfectly IMHO) including but not limited to MMX, MMX+,SSE2 SSE3 and PAE. I can provide a screenshot of CPU-Z on my athlon X2 if you wish.

Also, motherboards do not 'translate' instructions for the operating system. I have absolutely no idea where you got that one from.

You may wish to read the wikipedia article on x86 to famliarize yourself more with this area of information.

Eiba, if your system is doing this that soon after being worked on professionally, you should have a warranty. Talk to the shop that worked on it and show them those screen shots. If they are honorable (which is not always the case with shops) they will replace the motherboard with another one.

If I was you (but I have way more knowledge and buy things from the net and install them myself so this may not be the best idea) I would disable that craptastic realtek onboard nic (if that is onboard) and put in a nice 3Com or Intel network card.  I don't even use realtek, linksys, or accton network equipment anymore unless I absolutely have to... because they suck horribly.  My current workstation (primary computer) motherboard has a Marvell gigabit nic in it which has given few problems. Vitesse is also OK for embedded... But again as I said, I prefer 3Com and whenever possible Intel network cards.

If you have had issues with your computer and they continue after replacing hardware, it is *VERY* worthwhile to replace the power supply. It can and will damage every component in your system to varying extents over time if it is outputting dirty or out of spec power.  Craptastic power supplies are the undiagnosed culprit in the majority of computer hardware failures and data 'wierdness'.  Kingston (computer memory manufacturer) did a study a few years back and found that over 60% of RMAs (returns) were due to bad power destroying the RAM sticks.  A new *GOOD* power supply is a small investment compared to the cost of replacing all or even some of the components it can fry.  The Silencer 310 from www.pcpowercooling.com  is one of the best end-user level power supplies I have ever seen, and it can be had for $55 shipped direct to you.  A few more good brands are: FSP (fortron source), sparkle LTD, zippy, Silverstone, and Emacs.  All the other brands (except those made by FSP, of which there are many) are pure crap that I wouldn't trust powering an alarm clock.

~edit~
Slartibartfast:
Doing that is something that I wouldn't tell most end users to do for one. For two, you could brick it (cause it to be nonfunctional and require much more advanced procedures then that to ressurect it). For three, the BIOS chip or data storage EEPROM itself could be damaged.  Four, the circuitry handling it could be damaged, or more.  The best and most surefire option (especially if it was just bought and put in by a professional as a service) is to have them replace it, should be free.

[ March 31, 2007: Message edited by: Jaqie ]

[Keiseth]

I can't add anything technical into this topic to help, but I can add a conspiracy theory.

Remember all those times you flooded your fortress, killing unheard of numbers of Dwarves? Remember those times you sent some expendable fool to mine into the magma river? Recall how those dwarves in macabre moods slaughtered another and made crafts out of his bones and flesh, as you just sat and watched?

It's all coming back to haunt you. The dwarves are here... and they're angry. Really angry.

Or, you know, it could be just as everybody said logically above. You can take the proven, logical conclusion or my horribly misleading chaotic and totally improbable one. I always take the latter, myself. =)

In all seriousness though, that had to be a hilarious first thought, seeing all the DF symbols pop up.

[JT]

quote:Originally posted by Jaqie:

Wow, that's a lot of edits.  To CMA, however, I should point out that the photos are extremely blurry, and since BIOS programs on the whole are so damned different, I had no idea what it was (I certainly couldn't read it).  I assumed it was a BIOS boot because it was using the IBM characters.

The second point is that I never said anything along the lines of "you must", "you undoubtedly", etc.  I said it was "possible". ;-)

I was talking about extended instructions, of course (I did mention "proprietary").  If someone writes a boot virus for a specific instruction set, instead of x86 in general, it's not going to work on the other instruction set unless the other CPU emulates that.

I was, however, unaware that AMD emulates so many...

[ April 01, 2007: Message edited by: JT ]

[Jaqie Fox]

You mean to tell me that virii programmers would somehow write SSE3 code and then program it into the BIOS ROM?

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." -Mark Twain

For one, virii do not write themselves into the BIOS ROM code. The closest thing *EVER* for PCs was the CIH (chyrnobyl) virus which flashed the rom blank to brick your motherboard.
For two, writing code for any extended instruction set is extremely counterproductive and goes against the very premise of virii manufacturing.  Virii are as small and efficient as they can be, even the 'script kiddie' scripts are only a few KB in size. Writing in code to use any extended instruction set is pure idiocity.

[ April 01, 2007: Message edited by: Jaqie Fox ]

[JT]

At no point did I imply I'm a computer expert, either. =P

I hear a lot of things about boot viruses.  If you're saying they attack the operating system bootup instead of the system bootup, that's good to know.  You won't find information that clear anywhere else on the web. ;-)

[Jaqie Fox]

Are you sure about that?

[JT]

Wikipedia, per usual, goes into a tiny amount of detail on a subject without actually describing it in the ways that matter to someone suffering from a problem.

You know what, I'm just going to stop talking.  You're obviously out to show off your computer knowledge and out to disprove mine.  I'm not a computer expert and never have been, though I do know a thing or two, so this whole drumhead is pointless anyway.