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Author Topic: Giant wall project  (Read 3241 times)

Crifmer

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Giant wall project
« on: September 30, 2010, 10:24:01 am »

I don't want to call this a megaproject, even though it may eventually turn into one, but it's still a pretty big project..

I've been thinking of a bunch of things to do with my fortress now that I've got magma forges up and running and a good food/drink industry and I can start expanding.  I decided to meld a couple of these projects by building a giant wall around my fortress, leaving enough space inside to build all the areas I want to build.  It's something like a 90-square-tile area or something like that.

Anyway, the wall will be 4 z-levels high and sloping to a point, sort of like this:

   X
  /X\
 /XXX\
/XXXXX\

The default top to the wall is a wall or fortification, but I feel like that's not good enough.  Obviously, the wall needs a topper so nasties can't get over it.  So I'm calling for suggestions... how should I top my wall?  I will eventually be adding towers and a gatehouse, too, but that should have no bearing on the wall itself.

Any and all suggestions are very welcome.  I'd like something that blocks the path over, but looks good when put through one of those 3D rendering programs as I'm starting to rebuild the fort to look snazzy now.

Thanks!

-C
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meto30

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Re: Giant wall project
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2010, 10:52:31 am »

Since the wall's faces are going to be sloped (somewhat like the trace italienne that formed the core of 18th century Europian warfare, or earth mounds of the Spring and Autumn Period of China), why not follow the examples of our RW ancestors and top them with a smaller, straighter wall backed by a road? By nature sloped mound-walls are not designed to block passage and rather are elevated firing positions. Well, higher inclines do prevent perpendicular movement, but in DF you can't control the slope angle, so for the structure to actually function as a wall it needs to be topped by a wall.

You can also place catapults and ballistae on bastions, which I trust you already know of but in the slight chance you haven't heard of them, an angular formation jutting out from the linear mound which serves the same role as towers on castle walls. Of course, in DF siege artillery only works on the same z-level, so they are only aesthetic additions, but they'll still look cool.

The walls of Constaninople which were famous for their nigh impregnable defensibility were comprised of double walls, so that the inner, higher wall provided additional firing positions and doubled as a backup defense in case the first wall was taken by invaders. In DF the enemies never scale walls (yet, Toady says he plans for advanced siege warfare in future versions) so double walls are a redundancy, but when completed will look pretty and nasty.


Now, enough with RW ideas. On to the dorfy schemes.

A water reservoir placed atop the slope can wash invaders downwards into whatever fates you deem fit. A prime option would be a pit dug right outside the mound-wall with upright spikes planted in them. Or, for bonus effects, replace the water with magma and you can send your pesky besiegers burning whilst rolling down towards their doom. For this to work as intended you need a method to lure the hostiles all the way to the top of the incline while not giving them a chance to cross it... or the whole thing would simply be open and designed symmetrically so when magma is release in the right moment the enemies are swept in two directions which both feed into pits. I know this is much more complicated and also less defensible than the other options above but it's way more dorfier.

Also, a drawbridge that opens outwards can be place on top of the mound. When activated at the right timing it will fling enemies outwards, so they experience the bliss of free flight a few moments before falling down stunned, or if you're lucky, dead. Beware as building destroyers will simply destroy the contraption on sight.

Limitless possibilities still remain, but the above are what I could come up with in the short time. I hope I was of help :)
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Lord Vetinari

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Re: Giant wall project
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2010, 10:57:36 am »

Well, to begin with, try building two levels of fortifications.

(H is fortification, _  is floor):

    H__H
    H   H
   /XXXX\
  /XXXXX\
 /XXXXXX\

I'd also provide acces to both the walkways only via towers, but only the lower one will be used by the military. If you start the contruction from a tower, you'll never need a single block of solid wall to sustain the roof/floor, as you can anchor it to the tower itself.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 11:49:55 am by Lord Vetinari »
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Xenos

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Re: Giant wall project
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2010, 11:06:38 am »

I don't want to call this a megaproject, even though it may eventually turn into one, but it's still a pretty big project..

I've been thinking of a bunch of things to do with my fortress now that I've got magma forges up and running and a good food/drink industry and I can start expanding.  I decided to meld a couple of these projects by building a giant wall around my fortress, leaving enough space inside to build all the areas I want to build.  It's something like a 90-square-tile area or something like that.

Anyway, the wall will be 4 z-levels high and sloping to a point, sort of like this:

   X
  /X\
 /XXX\
/XXXXX\

The default top to the wall is a wall or fortification, but I feel like that's not good enough.  Obviously, the wall needs a topper so nasties can't get over it.  So I'm calling for suggestions... how should I top my wall?  I will eventually be adding towers and a gatehouse, too, but that should have no bearing on the wall itself.

Any and all suggestions are very welcome.  I'd like something that blocks the path over, but looks good when put through one of those 3D rendering programs as I'm starting to rebuild the fort to look snazzy now.

Thanks!

-C
This could very well be the beginnings of a megaproject...Well here are a few ideas/comments etc.  I have:

              M_
            /OO\
          /OOOO\
__    /OOOOOO\__________
O|__|OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

where O is wall and M is a fortification.  I would make sure you have at least one square of level terrain fort-side of the wall around the entire perimeter.  I also suggest adding a moat, whether wet, dry, or searing, make sure you have a moat.  This design would allow your marksdwarves to fire away at invaders while being protected by the fortification.  Also, make the layout of your wall not a boring square "wall in the embark" type wall.  No, make a star fort where each wall covers the base of the others, towers are on each point, and at the inside corners ballistae fire along the edge of the wall.  This is Dwarf Fortress, over-engineering is obligatory.

And just a tip for the gate house, Redundancy.  Just keep that in mind. 


Since the wall's faces are going to be sloped (somewhat like the trace italienne that formed the core of 18th century Europian warfare, or earth mounds of the Spring and Autumn Period of China), why not follow the examples of our RW ancestors and top them with a smaller, straighter wall backed by a road? By nature sloped mound-walls are not designed to block passage and rather are elevated firing positions. Well, higher inclines do prevent perpendicular movement, but in DF you can't control the slope angle, so for the structure to actually function as a wall it needs to be topped by a wall.

You can also place catapults and ballistae on bastions, which I trust you already know of but in the slight chance you haven't heard of them, an angular formation jutting out from the linear mound which serves the same role as towers on castle walls. Of course, in DF siege artillery only works on the same z-level, so they are only aesthetic additions, but they'll still look cool.

The walls of Constaninople which were famous for their nigh impregnable defensibility were comprised of double walls, so that the inner, higher wall provided additional firing positions and doubled as a backup defense in case the first wall was taken by invaders. In DF the enemies never scale walls (yet, Toady says he plans for advanced siege warfare in future versions) so double walls are a redundancy, but when completed will look pretty and nasty.


Now, enough with RW ideas. On to the dorfy schemes.

A water reservoir placed atop the slope can wash invaders downwards into whatever fates you deem fit. A prime option would be a pit dug right outside the mound-wall with upright spikes planted in them. Or, for bonus effects, replace the water with magma and you can send your pesky besiegers burning whilst rolling down towards their doom. For this to work as intended you need a method to lure the hostiles all the way to the top of the incline while not giving them a chance to cross it... or the whole thing would simply be open and designed symmetrically so when magma is release in the right moment the enemies are swept in two directions which both feed into pits. I know this is much more complicated and also less defensible than the other options above but it's way more dorfier.

Also, a drawbridge that opens outwards can be place on top of the mound. When activated at the right timing it will fling enemies outwards, so they experience the bliss of free flight a few moments before falling down stunned, or if you're lucky, dead. Beware as building destroyers will simply destroy the contraption on sight.

Limitless possibilities still remain, but the above are what I could come up with in the short time. I hope I was of help :)

If he placed the siege equipment within the base of the towers it could be usable.  Let me show you

OOOOOOO
O++++++O
O++++++O
O#[#+++O
M<==+++O
O#[#+++O
OOOODOO    Bottom

               M+
MMMMMMM+
M++++++++
M++++++++
M++++++++
M++++++++
M++++++++
MMMMMMM+     Top
               M+


Also, Lord Vertinari has a great idea for the wall top.  Better than mine.  :P 
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This is a useful feature..and this is DF.. so im gonna assume its bugged
That's what cages and minecart shotguns are for!  We don't need to control them.  We just need to aim them.
[DWARFINEERING]

Crifmer

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Re: Giant wall project
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2010, 11:14:52 am »

Well, to begin with, try building two levels of fortifications.

(H is fortification, _  is floor):

    H__H
    H   H
   /XXXX\
  /XXXXX\
 /XXXXXX\

I's also provide acces to both the walkways only via towers, but only the lower one will be used by the military. If you start the contruction from a tower, you'll never need a single block of solid wall to sustain the roof/floor, as you can anchor it to the tower itself.

I had actually thought of something like this.  The keep as it stands has ramparts all along the wall for a marksdwarf patrol, but I rarely use them anymore in favor of simply opening the gate and letting the gobbos try to brave my Spiral of Death (LOTS of weapon traps filled with 10 iron discs each).

What I was actually thinking about was a fortified walkway suspended above the wall, "roofed" over to protect from flying nasties.  So like this:

 ____
 H__H

   X
  /X\
 /XXX\
/XXXXX\

The walkways would be anchored to the towers.  Am I correct in inferring that the dwarfs can see and fire from that many Z-levels high?

Also, I do want to do something with magma, just not sure what... how would one make magma cannons?

Edit:  Star fort??? Not sure how you mean, but I like the sound of that.  I was going to go with a boring rectangle (albeit a really big one), but your suggestion sounds much more interesting.  And maybe that's what I do with the magma... a magma moat....
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 11:18:05 am by Crifmer »
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Xenos

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Re: Giant wall project
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2010, 11:20:52 am »

They can fire from that high, but each level you go up decreases their range by at least 1 square.  or just build fortifications sporadically throughout the wall...(basically holes in the ramps where dorfs shoot out of.) 

Do you mean the normal, less dorfy "spew magma out of one hole in their general direction" magma cannons, or the very dwarfy "build a large network spanning the entire map which allows magma to be tactically inserted at various points" magma cannon? If the former, just build a pump stack from the magma sea/a volcano part way down, and have the output blocked by a floodgate (magma safe if you want an off switch ;D) then fire up the pump stack, open the gate, insta magma cannon.  If you want the orbital magma network, read the orbital magma cannon thread, Searfire, DOMAIN Mk.II, or !!Project!! Skyforge.  The last three being pretty easy to find on the first two pages of this forum.
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This is a useful feature..and this is DF.. so im gonna assume its bugged
That's what cages and minecart shotguns are for!  We don't need to control them.  We just need to aim them.
[DWARFINEERING]

Funk

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Re: Giant wall project
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2010, 12:01:56 pm »

this is good but try.
(H is fortification, _  is floor,B ballista):

        H__H
        H    H
       /XXSX\
      /XXSXX\
_    HBXXXX\ 
X    XXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX
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Agree, plus that's about the LAST thing *I* want to see from this kind of game - author spending valuable development time on useless graphics.

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Xenos

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Re: Giant wall project
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2010, 12:35:00 pm »

look up starforts on wikipedia.  it should redirect to the 1600+ fortification method.
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This is a useful feature..and this is DF.. so im gonna assume its bugged
That's what cages and minecart shotguns are for!  We don't need to control them.  We just need to aim them.
[DWARFINEERING]

meto30

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Re: Giant wall project
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2010, 07:28:06 pm »

look up starforts on wikipedia.  it should redirect to the 1600+ fortification method.

which is known as 'trace italienne'...
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Xenos

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Re: Giant wall project
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2010, 08:18:17 pm »

look up starforts on wikipedia.  it should redirect to the 1600+ fortification method.

which is known as 'trace italienne'...

Ah, thank you for that clarification.  :D   I could only remember the details of their construction/architecture and that they are "star forts." :P
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This is a useful feature..and this is DF.. so im gonna assume its bugged
That's what cages and minecart shotguns are for!  We don't need to control them.  We just need to aim them.
[DWARFINEERING]

Vehudur

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Re: Giant wall project
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2010, 08:22:31 pm »

I build above-ground walls frequently in the late-early to midgame stages where defending my above-ground resources against attack becomes harder, but they're not yet irrelevant.

This is everything I do for fortifications:

All of it is in the trace italienne "star fort" arrangement.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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krenshala

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Re: Giant wall project
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2010, 10:49:52 pm »

One of the key aspects of star forts are that walls are covered by other walls.  In theory this makes it so sappers are not able to get into any blind spots to hide from the defenders and breach the walls so the invaders can get inside.  With cannon, the angled defenses also made the walls less likely to collapse from hits.

For DF, since you are stuck with 90 degree angles, keep things like this in mind:

Build a square tower that sticks out from the wall, so you can shoot along the wall at enemies:
Code: [Select]
Where # are walls, and X are fortifications
#####                          #####
#   X                          X   #
#   ############################   #
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Fanklok

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Re: Giant wall project
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2010, 11:32:10 pm »

Build two walls with one space between them carve fortifications in the outer walls and pump magma between the two of them so purifying holy fire purges the outer world preventing invaders from even getting near you.
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Crifmer

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Re: Giant wall project
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2010, 12:05:51 pm »

This is all great stuff, and I'm keeping it all in mind for expanding the wall... for now I'm going to go with my original idea, with a gatehouse and towers at the corners (which may be expanded beyond the wall to allow for siege weapons firing along the wall).  I don't have the room for anything snazzy, so I'm going with a rectangular wall.  Completely made of jet, with orthoclaise statues topping it.  Also adding the suspended walkway for marksdwarfs.

A magma-filled trench and secondary wall may be phase 2.  You guys are really inspiring me.
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chewie

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Re: Giant wall project
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2010, 12:21:41 pm »

Needs more vauban:

Spoiler: Huge pic (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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