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Author Topic: 31.14 and goblin !!Science!!  (Read 4641 times)

Diacritic

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31.14 and goblin !!Science!!
« on: September 30, 2010, 10:13:46 am »
Or, ideally, !!goblin!! science.

I'm experimenting with relative populations and whether that affects the invasion rate in .14.  I noticed in this thread that .14, with the same parameters produces an order of magnitude fewer goblins and an order of magnitude more dwarves in the world.

I'm now changing the "site cap" setting to see how that affects relative population size, on the theory that more goblins will make invasions happen.  I've genned the same world three times, with these basic parameters on the first one:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That's the first gen.  It had 40,151 dwarves, and 602 goblins.  Were I a goblin, I wouldn't invade that civ, either.  The same parameters in 31.12 gave me 4467 goblins and 5497 dwarves, so I'm aiming for something around that level.

Second gen, I changed the site cap to 20, and ended up with 907 dwarves and 903 goblins.  More parity, but probably not enough gobbos to get really hairy.

Third gen, site cap 100, 1685 dwarves and 1696 goblins in the world.  Looking better.

4th, site cap 200:  4141 dwarves vs. 2130 goblins.  I'm about 2k low on each.

5th, 300 cap: 6162 dwarves, 2658 goblins.  The farmlands are seriously advantaging the dwarves. This looks embarkable, though, and another encouraging sign is that some of the goblin sites have dwarf prisoners.

On the theory that I should keep going until goblin populations went down, I genned with a site cap of 500, and got 15959 dwarves and only 1350 goblins.  Farmlands are causing an explosion.

So, my next move is to embark in either the 4th or 5th iteration and see if I get invaded.  I think the sweet spot for maximum goblin fun is going to be somewhere in the 300-400 site cap range.
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Immacolata

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Re: 31.14 and goblin !!Science!!
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2010, 01:20:38 pm »
Created in DF v0.31.12.

[WORLD_GEN]
   [TITLE:EWELINA]
   [SEED:376610379]
   [HISTORY_SEED:119701263]
   [NAME_SEED:2347135898]
   [CREATURE_SEED:2375593029]
   [DIM:257:257]
   [EMBARK_POINTS:1274]
   [END_YEAR:1050]
   [BEAST_END_YEAR:300:80]
   [REVEAL_ALL_HISTORY:1]
   [CULL_HISTORICAL_FIGURES:0]
   [ELEVATION:1:400:1600:1600]
   [RAINFALL:0:100:400:400]
   [TEMPERATURE:25:75:400:400]
   [DRAINAGE:0:100:400:400]
   [VOLCANISM:0:100:400:400]
   [SAVAGERY:0:100:400:400]
   [ELEVATION_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
   [RAIN_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
   [DRAINAGE_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
   [TEMPERATURE_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
   [SAVAGERY_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
   [VOLCANISM_FREQUENCY:1:1:1:1:1:1]
   [TITAN_NUMBER:33]
   [TITAN_ATTACK_TRIGGER:80:0:100000]
   [DEMON_NUMBER:52]
   [GOOD_SQ_COUNTS:24:244:0]
   [EVIL_SQ_COUNTS:24:244:0]
   [PEAK_NUMBER_MIN:12]
   [PARTIAL_OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:0]
   [COMPLETE_OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:4]
   [VOLCANO_MIN:4]
   [REGION_COUNTS:SWAMP:252:1:1]
   [REGION_COUNTS:DESERT:252:1:1]
   [REGION_COUNTS:FOREST:1008:3:2]
   [REGION_COUNTS:MOUNTAINS:2016:2:2]
   [REGION_COUNTS:OCEAN:2016:1:1]
   [REGION_COUNTS:GLACIER:63:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:TUNDRA:126:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:GRASSLAND:2016:3:2]
   [REGION_COUNTS:HILLS:2016:3:2]
   [EROSION_CYCLE_COUNT:250]
   [RIVER_MINS:100:100]
   [PERIODICALLY_ERODE_EXTREMES:1]
   [OROGRAPHIC_PRECIPITATION:1]
   [SUBREGION_MAX:3500]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_COUNT:3]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MIN:0]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MAX:100]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MIN:0]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MAX:100]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_WATER_MIN:0]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_WATER_MAX:100]
   [HAVE_BOTTOM_LAYER_1:1]
   [HAVE_BOTTOM_LAYER_2:1]
   [LEVELS_ABOVE_GROUND:15]
   [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_1:5]
   [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_2:1]
   [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_3:1]
   [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_4:1]
   [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_5:2]
   [LEVELS_AT_BOTTOM:1]
   [CAVE_MIN_SIZE:5]
   [CAVE_MIN_SIZE:5]
   [CAVE_MAX_SIZE:25]
   [MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:25]
   [NON_MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:50]
   [ALL_CAVES_VISIBLE:0]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_TUNNEL:2]
   [TOTAL_CIV_NUMBER:20]
   [TOTAL_CIV_POPULATION:15000]
   [PLAYABLE_CIVILIZATION_REQUIRED:1]
   [ELEVATION_RANGES:33000:4032:2016]
   [RAIN_RANGES:2016:4032:2016]
   [DRAINAGE_RANGES:2016:4032:2016]
   [SAVAGERY_RANGES:2016:4032:2016]
   [VOLCANISM_RANGES:2016:4032:2016]


20 gobbos in the entire world. O.o. TWENTY?!?

I checked some of the Dark Fortresses. Year 1. Gobbo moves in. Year 50. Colossus kicks the Gobs out. Year 150, dwarves move in and kicks out Colossus. Or something like that.
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Emily

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Re: 31.14 and goblin !!Science!!
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2010, 01:44:21 pm »
Quick question: are you looking at Goblin populations or the populations of evil entities (which is to say, civs that started out as goblins)

Because it is not uncommon for Goblins to replace their entire population with dwarves because of baby stealing.
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Diacritic

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Re: 31.14 and goblin !!Science!!
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2010, 01:48:59 pm »
For my part, I just counted the goblins, because it's much quicker and easier and I feel like it should give a pretty reasonable estimation.  In my first .14 gen, with 600 gobbos, none of those civilzations have any non-goblins, probably because 40 thousand dwarves have been squishing baby snatchers.
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Immacolata

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Re: 31.14 and goblin !!Science!!
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2010, 03:18:19 pm »
Quote from: Emily on September 30, 2010, 01:44:21 pm
Quick question: are you looking at Goblin populations or the populations of evil entities (which is to say, civs that started out as goblins)

Because it is not uncommon for Goblins to replace their entire population with dwarves because of baby stealing.

Uh, I pretty much just copied the site txt file into excel and filtered on goblin. It might have missed the dwarf baby stealing bit. Not sure how I'd go about checking the evil population.

In my .3114 genned map, the high gobbo pop of 2000 might be because i set the site cap at 300 - meaning far distances between settlement I guess, and less opportunity for gobs to steal babies?
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GuudeSpelur

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Re: 31.14 and goblin !!Science!!
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2010, 03:42:03 pm »
Even if the native goblins were entirely displaced by descendants of their slaves, you'll still get invaded by that civ.  The invaders will just be one dwarf/elf/human weaponmaster with a goblin name and the rest goblins, because the non-leader invaders are generated on the spot.
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Quote from: MetalSlimeHunt on January 27, 2011, 10:37:39 pm
Quote from: Sphalerite on January 27, 2011, 10:34:07 pm
This fortress is turning into some kind of supervillain lair or something.
You do remember that you've been farming gigantic wingless dragon-fish for profit and Fun, right?

Eagle_eye

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Re: 31.14 and goblin !!Science!!
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2010, 03:45:32 pm »
that is no longer true.
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Quietust

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Re: 31.14 and goblin !!Science!!
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2010, 05:19:52 pm »
Quote from: Eagle_eye on September 30, 2010, 03:45:32 pm
that is no longer true.

What is your evidence for this? I ran a fortress in 0.31.12 for over 20 years and it has consistently held true.
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BigJake

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Re: 31.14 and goblin !!Science!!
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2010, 05:25:40 pm »
Quote from: Quietust on September 30, 2010, 05:19:52 pm
Quote from: Eagle_eye on September 30, 2010, 03:45:32 pm
that is no longer true.

What is your evidence for this? I ran a fortress in 0.31.12 for over 20 years and it has consistently held true.

Here too, in two different forts.
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darkflagrance

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Re: 31.14 and goblin !!Science!!
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2010, 05:48:03 pm »
The question is how true it remains for 31.13, where the bugs are occurring because something about invasions or goblins changed.
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Vhorthex

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Re: 31.14 and goblin !!Science!!
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2010, 07:17:47 pm »
where can you see the total populations of the different civs after creating a world? I see site lists, but couldn't find a "total"

Also, in the few worlds i just generated I coldn't even find the word "goblin" D:
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Vhorthex
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Diacritic

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Re: 31.14 and goblin !!Science!!
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2010, 07:22:23 pm »
Quote from: Vhorthex on September 30, 2010, 07:17:47 pm
where can you see the total populations of the different civs after creating a world? I see site lists, but couldn't find a "total"

Also, in the few worlds i just generated I coldn't even find the word "goblin" D:

I totaled everything in spreadsheets.  As for the latter, they probably all died in world gen.
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krenshala

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Re: 31.14 and goblin !!Science!!
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2010, 07:32:14 pm »
My post in the referenced thread shows that the populations in goblin populated sites is not just a goblin population/master and the master/other-population.  I'm currently compiling a list of populations now (using the above mentioned method of dropping the sites file into a spreadsheet and getting the numbers out of it), and will post those numbers once I get them.
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Moosey

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Re: 31.14 and goblin !!Science!!
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2010, 07:42:09 pm »
I've investigated this a bit in the previous version, 31.13.  I'm now playing 31.14 but I still have no goblins attacking so I assume the same thing is going on.

Anyway, I went into Legends mode and found a dark fortress.  Its history was that it was founded by goblins, who then started kidnapping mostly humans (some elves and dwarves, but not many) from nearby towns.  When these abductees grew up, they became child-snatchers themselves -- and they also started murdering other residents of the dark fortress.  A typical human, in his short lifetime, would abduct a dozen or so, murder a handful, and then get murdered himself.

The Goblin population growth in this fort is just what the goblins can manage in the usual way.  But the human population is constantly fed by a healthy child-snatching industry.  And with dozens of random murders each year, it's not long before the goblins completely die out, and it's just a town full of child-snatching, murderous humans.
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Diacritic

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Re: 31.14 and goblin !!Science!!
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2010, 07:57:43 pm »
That would happen in .12, though.
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