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[Gamermaster]

So,discussions about technology have been done to death, but I just thought of Inventing.
Inventing would be how new technology is brought into the world of DF. Adventures who had it could spend a few in-game months using all materials the player assigned to them, as well as a general topic they research, also chosen. Depending on your skill you could create a useless device that shoots rabbits to splitting the atom  . In dwarf fortress you could assign a room as the Inventor's hall, where they goof around and in general find you new and entertaining ways to kill elv- er, improve society. Legends could have famous inventors, and in adventurer you could find Inventor halls in cities.

[Capntastic]

So,discussions about technology have been done to death, but I just thought of Inventing.

You know most of the threads about technology suggest having inventor dwarves as the vector for the new creations, right?   Likewise, do a search for Inventor and Inventions.   The reasons why an inventor dwarf wouldn't really fit the game have likewise been discussed to death.   Most notably, they don't fit the tone of the game- DF is about dramatic battle and adventure far more than quirky, randomized gadgeteering.   Likewise, inventing as a profession doesn't fit the pre-1400 scheme very well.   My personal reason for disliking the idea of inventioneering dwarves is that tech trees are bad, but randomized tech trees are worse.

Edit:  Pre-emptively pointing out that I'm aware of pre-1400 inventors, obviously, but they were very few and far between.   Even people like Hero of Alexandria, who did amazing things, often did them as one-off toys more than mass-produced or weaponized versions.

[Andeerz]

Edit:  Pre-emptively pointing out that I'm aware of pre-1400 inventors, obviously, but they were very few and far between.   Even people like Hero of Alexandria, who did amazing things, often did them as one-off toys more than mass-produced or weaponized versions.

Inventors as we think of them today were very much few and far between.  That is not to say that the pre-1400's were not rife with invention of very useful things.  Knowledge of people credited with inventions were undoubtedly lost to time frequently, especially since ownership of ideas was not a terribly respected idea throughout much of medieval history.  I'm not saying that you, Capntastic, suggested an absence or very small amount of invention throughout this time (though if it is what you suggested, I'd love to know where you get this info from), just supplementing your astute comments.  I agree with you.  Having entities with a dedicated "invention" profession or something similar would not fit with the feel of the game, does not at all make sense from a historical point of view, and I feel would misrepresent how inventions come about IRL.  Not to mention it would make the game sort of... I dunno the word I'm looking for... meta-gamey?

Anyway, there are some cool threads I will edit into this post at a later time today that discuss these ideas and have some really cool ideas by anyone's standards.  :3  Gotta go...

[Urist McMick]

Isn't the current artifact system, more or less akin to an invention system? y'know, Dwarfs spontaneously creating something new and wonderful?

[Andeerz]

I guess it could be the basis for an invention system, but it's virtually random with knowledge, motivation, intelligence, and need (among other things) not really factoring in.  I would say it's a poor model of invention if that's what it's trying to do, which I don't think it is.

[Shade-o]

What if Invention was its own skill, and it had an unproductive result, like Stonecrafting but without the trade ability? Thus the only way to get anything out of it would be to spam it so that Dwarves get moods, and the mood has a chance of making something actually useful?

That way you have to invest time and resources and Dwarves in it, for a potentially useless result. Which describes... most things people find fun, actually.

[Andeerz]

What if Invention was its own skill, and it had an unproductive result, like Stonecrafting but without the trade ability? Thus the only way to get anything out of it would be to spam it so that Dwarves get moods, and the mood has a chance of making something actually useful?

That way you have to invest time and resources and Dwarves in it, for a potentially useless result. Which describes... most things people find fun, actually.

Shade-o, I see what you are saying, and some might like the idea, but I do not, and here is why:

It encourages meta-gaming, which at least for me makes DF less immersive and less compelling.  Also, it makes invention in the game lack verisimilitude: the mood that would make "invention" happen would be largely independent of factors that I think would be more appropriate and realistic*, like intelligence, skill in a trade, awareness of a need for a novel tool/technique (technology) or awareness of the difficulty of a task, free time, knowledge of prerequisite knowledge*, and other such factors that have a direct bearing on the motivation of someone to experiment and develop an invention or discover something. 

Having invention be something totally random like moods could work, but I'd rather in that case technology be totally stagnant in the game, since there would be no room (or really hard to have room for) for input from external factors into the process.  The way you build the fort and manage your society (short of spamming some arbitrary "invention" skill) would have no (or extremely little) impact on whether or not your fort/city/whatever is a good environment for fostering invention and other pursuits of the mind. 

That's my opinion.   


Oh, and here's some threads I think people interested in technology in DF should look at.  These are by far my favorite threads on the matter and each has many different flavors of how to approach this issue.

Evolving Tech Levels Over Time
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=41486.msg941692#msg941692

Libraries
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=46550.15

Some Thoughts on Technology
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=62629.msg1497686#msg1497686   

The Inventions Megathread
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=29591.45

All of these threads have some really killer ideas!  

[Shade-o]

Sure, I was just throwing out a random idea. You could sort of imitate such a system right now actually, just set up a workshop that has a very small chance to create an 'Invention' craft and make that part of the reagents for an awesome workshop reaction.

It's crude and pointless, yay!

[Andeerz]

lol! 

[Urist McMick]

The point I was attempting (rather badly) to make is that, people have very rarely sat down and said "imma invent something", Most of our greatest inventions came about either by accident, or by a random stroke of genious. This is especially true in the 1400's era which Dwarf Fortress is trying to simulate. I suppose if you wanted to make it less random it could be affected by various factors, for example, if your Dwarfs are constantly doing menial tasks they wouldn't have much time for creative thought, whereas in a fort where dwarfs spend a lot of time idling they would have time to ponder the universe and come up with new things. Similarly the amount of contact with other dwarfs could affect it, what with information sharing and whatnot, further the type of invention could be based on the things that dwarf comes into contact with every day, if your fort is packed to the gills with mechanics, 'twould be something mechanical, statues: something artistic, etc...

[harborpirate]

The only way I could see this working is if Alchemy reactions/"recipes" were randomly generated at world gen, and "inventing" would be trying to discover what worked.

That may already be part of the plan, and I'm sure its come up before in suggestions.

Eye of newt and the hair of a bat and a pinch of lye and a rose gold bar! Poof! Oh carp, a cave troll!