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[Pandarsenic]

The point of 1984 is doublethink. Of course there was a Brotherhood, but the Brotherhood wasn't real. It exists, but controlled and subsidized by the Party, just like everything else. It serves the same purpose as the endless war with East Asia and Eurasia, if those countries even exist that is. An opponent to fight, but never defeat. Victory defeats the purpose of the wars in 1984, as it is the constant stat e of war and violence that feeds the propaganda machine, keeps people afraid and high off of the small victories.

Also letting them create the (almost certainly artificial) scarcities.

[Sowelu]

I need to look it up, but I am pretty sure the book implies the the wars are "arranged". The opponent would change as needed and the newspapers and records and history books would all be re-written so the the new enemy was always the enemy.

The new enemy was always the enemy, but I got the impression that the wars were still real wars, and that they could shift at the whims of the other guys (the leadership of all three nations didn't sit down for tea).  What stands out most strongly in my mind is when they had to swap out a bunch of fancy banners right in the middle of some big event, and claim that it was the work of enemy provocateurs.  I think they really were caught off-guard.

[ductape]

I need to re-read it, but I did get the impression that it was very clandestine and conspiratorial. The leaders did sit down for tea as you say and orchestrate the whole show. It also makes sense, form this point of view, that underlings WOULD be caught off guard and have to change banners suddenly, what do they know about the machinations of the elite few?

Underlings could be presidents too. If you follow conspiracy theory stuff, a lot of which gets inspiration from this book, there are those who believe things like that.

Well, maybe the good thing about a book like this is the thoughts and conversation it can provoke. Speaking of which, i just picked up Aldous Huxley's, "Brave New World".

[Servant Corps]

Everyone must engage in doublethink. Including the leaders of Oceania. If they fail in doublethinking, the entire State collaspes and the Inner Party likely dead.

[ChairmanPoo]

O'Brain admits their most likely IS a Brotherhood... ends then?

O'Brian does not admit any such thing. In fact, it is implied that the whole thing is a farce since he wrote "Goldstein's Book" in the first place

"You have read THE BOOK, Goldstein's book, or parts of it, at least. Did it tell you anything that you did not know already?'
'You have read it?' said Winston.
'I wrote it. That is to say, I collaborated in writing it. No book is produced individually, as you know.'
'Is it true, what it says?'
'As description, yes. The programme it sets forth is nonsense.

Moreover: the would-be revolutionaries are every bit as morally bankrupt as the system they intend to overthrow, as O'Brian proves:

'And you consider yourself morally superior to us, with our lies and our cruelty?'
'Yes, I consider myself superior.'
O'Brien did not speak. Two other voices were speaking. After a moment Winston recognized one of them as his own. It was a sound-track of the conversation he had had with O'Brien, on the night when he had enrolled himself in the Brotherhood. He heard himself promising to lie, to steal, to forge, to murder, to encourage drug-taking and prostitution, to disseminate venereal diseases, to throw vitriol in a child's face.

[Dynaphus]

I remember it, I might have a hunt through my copy but I'm certain he just act's Un-bothered by the Brotherhood but DOES claim that there is a very rel chance they exist, And their is probably more then one..."edition"...Of the "Book". even if It is not entirely accurate Anyway what I'm asking is if story wise, It was not TO far-fetched

[ChairmanPoo]

No, he doesn't. When asked directly, he doesn't say anything at all:

Winston: Does the Brotherhood exist?

O'Brien: That, Winston, you will never know. If we choose to set you free when we have finished with you, and if you live to be ninety years old, still you will never learn whether the answer to that question is Yes or No. As long as you live it will be an unsolved riddle in your mind.

[ductape]

how about a Dystopian themed game with references to all the relevant literature?

[Vattic]

This topic has already mentioned three books I've got sat on my bookshelf. 1984, Brave New World, and A Clockwork Orange; Three books I hold in high esteem.

This whole topic makes me think of the tabletop game Paranoia, unfortunately I've never played it but have read and heard about it. Squidi made an entry based on Paranoia in his Three Hundred (Game) Mechanics page which might be of interest.

how about a Dystopian themed game with references to all the relevant literature?

Apparently Paranoia was laced with references to well known dystopian literature and I think this is the way to go for both copyright reasons and to avoid shoehorning the original text into a game. Having it loosely based on lots of other literature gives plenty to work with including graphic novels like V for Vendetta.

I'd really like to see a game not dissimilar to LCS in some ways but with a more dystopian theme.

Speaking of which, i just picked up Aldous Huxley's, "Brave New World".

When you're done with that one get Island by Aldous Huxley. It's almost the same but instead of dystopia it's more like utopia; They do a lot of the same things but the meaning is totally opposite. The two books contrast nicely.

Edit: I mentioned there being a lot of fiction to draw on and thought someone else might find these two lists interesting.
Dystopian Literature
Dystopian Comics

[Dynaphus]

No, he doesn't. When asked directly, he doesn't say anything at all:

Yes, I just looked it up, But he does not say it DOES'NT exist, You could take his cryptic remark either way

[Servant Corps]

Hm. I played PARANOIA, but if I am to make a Captain Estraz version of 1984, I like to focus on running the dystopia, as opposed to serving in it. When you're serving the dystopia, well, it implies that at least the leadership is having a nice time. When you're running the dystopia, you realize that, no, society really is terrible.

[Elven_ranger]

If someone comes up with a complete game mechanics of any game discussed here, I'll program it.

[ed boy]

Sweet, we could make a community project out of it.

I'll probably put up some mechanics stuff later tonight.

[Elven_ranger]

I'll be waiting.

Forewarning: it has to be turn-based, require no mouse to control and fit well enough with ASCII visuals. Also, I'd appreciate it very much if no pathfinding algorithms would be requred.

Other than that, I think I'll manage. Both menu-based and ASCII-map based models won't take much effort from my side.

[ed boy]

Here's some basic stuff (I'm very open to criticism).

The world (land and oceans) are divided into lots of little areas. Each area has the following attributes:

• Terrain type (ocean, mountain, city, etc)
• Faction ownership (Eurasia, Eastasia, Oceania)
• Inner party population
• Outer party population
• Prole population
• Child population
• Child fanaticism (between 0 and 1)
• Child quality of life (between 0 and 1)
• Prole fanaticism (between 0 and 1)
• Prole quality of life (between 0 and 1)
• Prole work rate (between 0 and 1)
• Outer party fanaticism (between 0 and 1)
• Outer party quality of life (between 0 and 1)
• Outer party work rate (between 0 and 1)
• Transportation level
• Max Transportation
• Food stockpile
• Shelter level
• Amenities level (things like clothes, furniture)

There would also be a table of installations. Each installation would have the following attributes:

• Location
• Type (floating fortress, farm, factory, propaganda offices)
• Prole jobs provided
• Outer party jobs provided
• Inner party jobs provided
• Output type
• Output magnitude
• Effectiveness
• Duration
• Following installation

There would also be a table of units.

• Unit type
• Unit position
• Unit strength
• Unit morale
• Unit fanaticism
• Unit quality of life

Finally, there would be a table of transportation orders:

• Type
• Magnitude
• From
• To
• Repeating (boolean)

The game works as such:

The player has four main screens that they will interact with: The world view, the territory screen, the production screen, and the military screen. Let us go through them individually.

World screen:
The world screen shows each of the territories, in a different colour depending on who owns it. For example, Oceanian territories would be blue, Eurasian would be red, and Eastasian would be yellow. The shade of each color (light/dark/normal) would vary depending on what viewing options the player chooses. If the player chooses the "military" view, then all territories are given colors depending on whether they have been invaded, have withstanded an attack, have launched a successful attack, have launched an unsuccessful attack, or have done nothing. If the player chooses the "Economic view", then the shade of each territory varies depending on whether the people are starving, whether they are not fanatical enough, etc.

Military screen:
The military screen examines the military forces stationed in each territory. From here, individual forces can be told to attack or move. However, the number of forces moving through a territory are limited to (Max transportation - Transportation level). If they are attacked, or attack an enemy, battle occurs. The respective strength, morale and quality of life of the units attacking and defending are compared. If the defenders win, the strength of both sides is reduced by an appropriate amount. If the attackers win, The defenders are wiped out, and the population in the invaded territory is exterminated.

Territory screen:
This is probably the most important screen. In this screen, the playor focuses on one territory in particular. The player sees the following information:

• Repeating shipments of goods incoming
• Non-repeating shipments of goods incoming
• Repeating shipments of goods outgoing
• Non-repeating shipments of goods outgoing
• Terrain type (ocean, mountain, city, etc)
• Faction ownership (Eurasia, Eastasia, Oceania)
• Inner party population
• Outer party population
• Prole population
• Child population
• Child fanaticism (between 0 and 1)
• Child quality of life (between 0 and 1)
• Prole fanaticism (between 0 and 1)
• Prole quality of life (between 0 and 1)
• Prole work rate (between 0 and 1)
• Outer party fanaticism (between 0 and 1)
• Outer party quality of life (between 0 and 1)
• Outer party work rate (between 0 and 1)
• Transportation level
• Max Transportation
• Food stockpile
• Shelter level
• Amenities level (things like clothes, furniture)

From this screen, the play would have the option to do the following:

• Set up a repeating shipment of goods to a neighbouring territory
• Set up a one-off shipment of goods to a neighbouring territory
• Relocate some people to a neighbouring territory
• Set priority levels for inner and outer party members

Finally, there is the production screen. This is where the player wil do the most interacting with the game. The player examines each territory and has the option of choosing what installations to produce there. The installations will be non-tangible things as well as tangible things. Setting up newspeak, for example, would be a production. Some productions will lead into other productions - For example, if you wanted to built a propaganda office, you initially be rewarded with the production "Propaganda office (building)" which would require a lot of prole work. After the proles have done enough and the production is completed, it will be replaced with a new production: "Propaganda office". This would provide continuous work for party members and would have constant effect once it is set up.

Finally there is the issue of what goes on every turn. Each turn is a week, and each turn the following happens:

• Goods are transported
• Migrations occur (if ordered)
• The work rate, fanaticism and quality of life are calculated for each territory. Quality of life increases birth rate but decreases work rate and fanaticism. Depending on what installations are in each territory, these can be affected appropriately. Work rate depends on how many jobs are available for each sector of society. A work rate will increase to 50% normally. As fanaticism increases and quality of life decreases, the maximum work rate in each sector of the population increases up to 1.
• A fraction of the adult population in each territory dies (depending on quality of life - a high quality of life decreases this)
• A certain proportion of the child population becomes adults
• The child population increases be a certain amount (depending on the adult population and quality of life)
• Basic needs are checked. If a territory does not have enough food or amenities, the quality of life is decreased, and they may die. In inner party has a minimum level of goods required: It is only if that level is met that the outer party is considered, and once the outer party's minimum level is met that the proles are considered.
• Productions and installations are processed.
• Attacks are processed

I've probably missed something out, so if you point it out I can explain further.[/list][/list]