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[TheyTarget]

Wow. This thread blow up. Hmmm, while were at it.
Why don't rehaul the whole relationship thing? Have dwarfs with sexual preferences, have dwarfs, that might commit adultery(With penalties, if discovered), have dwarfs, that will have random sex, and have illegitimate children (maybe punishable), divorces, and remarriages. Though again, if we have things dwarfs can, do that will get themselves in jail, we have to have something that the player can do, to prevent, adultery and random sex. Though I can't think of anything at the moment. It's all just a suggestion.

[forsaken1111]

It would be neat if we could implement social policies ingame rather than having them coded into the entity file. Have the mayor put forth a bill allowing the butchering and consumption of goblins for 1 year, for example, due to a particularly nasty siege followed by a lack of food. This social policy system could cover a lot of the things which are currently only controlled in the entity definition and would allow for variations in different forts/towns across the generated world.

[Shade-o]

Discworldian courtship shouldn't really apply, since our Dwarves have clear gender dimorphism.

[Jayce]

NO MORE POLITICAL CORRECT BULLSHIT!!.Just cause your gay you demand gay dwarfs.

[Josephus]

NO MORE POLITICAL CORRECT BULLSHIT!!.

Dude what

EXPLAIN YOUR ALL-CAPS SENTENCE.

[Ø]

Dwarf fortress is the LAST game you want a hot-button social group to be in.

Also, This is a game where you can go and slaughter an entire town with with some intestines, torn from a still living 4 year old girl. And in which a large majority of player dedicate most of their time to finding new and inventive ways to torture elves to death. And you reckon that homosexual dwarfs are gonna be the thing that pushes it over the edge?

It will be "Indie game Dwarf Fortress simulates homophobic genocide". You know there's at least one person out there who will. Sure it has all sorts of nasty violent things in it, but you can't do anything seriously politically incorrect right now because there's no real world equivalent people in game to do them to. It's just dwarves and elves (and mermaid bone farms) right now.

A more extreme example, but the same reasoning: Would you want gays to be specifically represented in that serial killer rougelike?

[G-Flex]

God dammit. I tried to make decent posts, provided quotes from the developer, and it devolves into homophobic claptrap that I missed out on?

Dwarf fortress is the LAST game you want a hot-button social group to be in.

Wait, why? Just because there are a lot of people who (for one reason or not) don't like gay people, that means we should pretend they don't/can't exist and that the world is perfectly heteronormative, including the entirety of various fantasy worlds?

Christ, if this were the 1960's you'd be saying not to include black people. Same logic.


Honestly, there's absolutely no reason to be offended over the inclusion of non-heterosexual characters in a fantasy world simulator. Why should you be? Hell, the game already has mass murder, war, and political usurpation/deception, not because those things are good, but because they're necessary parts of any history of human beings (or similar creatures). The same goes with issues of sexual orientation.

So no, I don't think that the game should completely ignore an issue just because some people are homophobic any more than I think it should ignore war because some people are pacifists, race because some people are racist, or strawberries because some people are allergic to them.

Some of the comments in this thread are extraordinarily fucking childish. I guess I should have expected that, though.

It will be "Indie game Dwarf Fortress simulates homophobic genocide". You know there's at least one person out there who will. Sure it has all sorts of nasty violent things in it, but you can't do anything seriously politically incorrect right now because there's no real world equivalent people in game to do them to.

This game has spawned adventure-mode stories of people tearing the eyes out of children. Do children not exist in the real world?

Yes, people will do distasteful things in-game, including to groups that exist in real life. Isolated incidents of players acting like dicks is not going to give the game a bad image. See: Toady's comments on genetics in DF and eugenics. I understand that there's an element of PR involved, but seriously, if the game can handle dismembering infants, genocide, child abduction, and the mass slaughter of intelligent animals to make trinkets out of their bones, then it can handle the possibility of some 12-year-old of a player killing gay dudes because he's immature.


Seriously, some of you guys need to take a step back and listen to what you're saying and think about it for a second.

[Grey_313]

Homosexuality is pretty gross, we shouldn't have the gays in Dwarf Fortress

[forsaken1111]

Homosexuality is pretty gross, we shouldn't have the gays in Dwarf Fortress

I don't like you.

[G-Flex]

Homosexuality is pretty gross, we shouldn't have the gays in Dwarf Fortress

This is Earl_Grey from the IRC channel. I can tell you with 100% confidence that he's just trolling you guys after being made aware of this thread. Just ignore it.

[Ø]

Seriously, some of you guys need to take a step back and listen to what you're saying and think about it for a second.

I was thinking the same thing.

Just because there are a lot of people who (for one reason or not) don't like gay people,

No, I'm saying it probably shouldn't be added because the game also includes genocide, murder, mass abduction, and slaughter. The fact that it already includes these ISN'T justification to throw in the possibility of modern political incorrectness.

Again, Would you want gays to be specifically represented in that serial killer rougelike? Or if this was the 1960's, black people in a serial killer simulator? Not the fact that they're gay or black and people don't care for them, but the fact that they're specifically represented in a...

Oh fuck it. Yes, lets throw in hot-button social groups into the mass murder simulator.

[Urist McMick]

I sincerely hope that was sarcasm

[Josephus]

Oh fuck it. Yes, lets throw in hot-button social groups into the mass murder simulator.

Yes, lets. And stop calling my community a "hot-button social group."

[forsaken1111]

Homosexuality is pretty gross, we shouldn't have the gays in Dwarf Fortress

This is Earl_Grey from the IRC channel. I can tell you with 100% confidence that he's just trolling you guys after being made aware of this thread. Just ignore it.

And he's been reported for it. I still don't like him.

[G-Flex]

No, I'm saying it probably shouldn't be added because the game also includes genocide, murder, mass abduction, and slaughter. The fact that it already includes these ISN'T justification to throw in the possibility of modern political incorrectness.

It would be more "politically incorrect" (and downright socially irresponsible) to look the other way entirely and pretend a concept/group doesn't exist just because they might be mistreated in a video game. The most socially responsible thing to do would be exactly what Toady said: To include it in a naturalistic way that doesn't take into account modern political hubbub at all.

Again, Would you want gays to be specifically represented in that serial killer rougelike?

No, because there's no real reason to represent sexual orientation in that game, just as that game probably doesn't include the subjects of political succession, trade guilds, or what color a person likes best. There's simply no reason to care about sexual orientation in that game. There is, however, reason to do so in Dwarf Fortress.

Seriously, you might as well be talking about gender here? Why have women in the game when you can just go around murdering them all? Wouldn't that be politically correct? Or isn't killing people/things in the name of your god potentially politically incorrect? Or tossing infants off of buildings?

Or if this was the 1960's, black people in a serial killer simulator?

Yes, let's pretend that certain social groups don't exist and leave them out of works entirely just because they might be mistreated by some players in a way the game doesn't even encourage. That's definitely more politically correct.

Oh fuck it. Yes, lets throw in hot-button social groups into the mass murder simulator.

Yes, lets. And stop calling my community a "hot-button social group."

Hell, it's even worse than that. It's not just leaving out the modern gay community in the US (or any other place), it's leaving out the entire question of sexual orientation and its impact on people and society.


Not that I'm saying that gay people not existing in DF right now is horrible; the game just hasn't gotten into that level of social simulation yet. But to say it should specifically be excluded no matter how detailed the simulation gets is asinine.