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Author Topic: Can we have homosexual dwarves?  (Read 22663 times)

kuketski

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #75 on: September 24, 2010, 05:43:21 am »

Yeah, yeah, i`m kinda homophobic, i know(and xenophobic as well).
it just isnt going to add some fun to DF. =)
it`ll bring bunch of demography useless dwarves to a fort.
Why not? If you embrace your homophobia and xenophobia, you just have another reason to throw dwarves into magma. You're the one who advocates eugenics and systematic rape :) Not that I'm opposed to it, I'm all for giving the player freedom to do whatever fucked up things he or she wants.
Ok, i agree. I can stant some homos in the game(ill throw them in to magma anyway).
But i cannot agree, that Toady will spend his precious coding time on implementation of gay/natural sexuality system instead of eugenics and forced sex!
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Vaftrudner

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #76 on: September 24, 2010, 05:46:45 am »

So unbelievably sigged.

Shade-o

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #77 on: September 24, 2010, 05:47:04 am »

If it irks you so, then by all means make a pro-rape and eugenics thread.
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forsaken1111

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #78 on: September 24, 2010, 05:47:10 am »

I'm all for giving the player freedom to do whatever fucked up things he or she wants.
And isn't that really the essence of this game? 'Do whatever you want, the engine can support it.'
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kuketski

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #79 on: September 24, 2010, 05:47:51 am »

kuketski has claimed Toady One precious coding time!
kuketski screams "I must have eugenics!"
kuketski screams "I must have sexual selection!"
kuketski screams "I must have concubines!"
kuketski screams "I must have harems!"
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devek

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #80 on: September 24, 2010, 06:09:56 am »

But i cannot agree, that Toady will spend his precious coding time on implementation of gay/natural sexuality system instead of eugenics and forced sex!

I find no flaw in this argument.
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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #81 on: September 24, 2010, 06:11:16 am »

But i cannot agree, that Toady will spend his precious coding time on implementation of gay/natural sexuality system instead of eugenics and forced sex!

I find no flaw in this argument.

I do believe that it is up to Toady to decide what to do with his precious coding time.
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kuketski

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #82 on: September 24, 2010, 06:17:08 am »

But i cannot agree, that Toady will spend his precious coding time on implementation of gay/natural sexuality system instead of eugenics and forced sex!

I find no flaw in this argument.

I do believe that it is up to Toady to decide what to do with his precious coding time.
Of course!

As well as it up to us to agree with his decision or not despite that the fact that it wont change anything at all. =)
After all, we playing whatever Toady codes. =)

In terms of DF - if dwarf demands something its always up to player to decide what to do with him. give him what he demands or just wait for him to go insane. =)
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Starver

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #83 on: September 24, 2010, 06:41:38 am »

This thread became much-posted, even while I was composing this message, I'll catch up on the intervening stuff, but a quick look looks like there's not much I want to review in order to amend this, save that, indeed, it's Toady's game, I'm just wandering along looking at how I might personally approach the idea, without tying anyone down to that particular solution, much less Toady.

Cheers, Vaftrudner, for your clarification on Viking, it's a part-forgotten fact that just happened to fall into my stream of consciousness, nice to get an authoritative-sounding opinion... :)  Also...
Regarding your remarks on in-game evolution, while interesting I hardly see them as appropriate in DF, since the game world is actually divinely crafted at a certain point.
Well, we know it was divinely created, but creatures of DwarfYear 1050 or more may look at the evidence and the history they know of and pluck a perfectly plausible Theory Of Evolution out of it.

Depending on your POV: exactly like non-YECers do/like YECers erroneously think that non-YECers do, here on God's Earth/this lump of congealed stardust.  Except that our Toady-In-The-Sky has implemented fossils in the raws. :)

Anyway...  I was really going to point out to your later posts that there are "Lovers" in the relationships (although I rarely get any non-married couples forming, that I noticed, so brief are my forts...) so I'd say that something called love ("Whatever love is...") exists.


And TheyTarget:, in response to "And I don't like messing with stuff, unless it makes it harder", does losing a spouse mean more unhappiness than losing a lover, than losing a friend?  If so, the possibility of losing an MOTSS more-than-a-friend would be more difficult than just losing a friend.

And with asynchronous relationships, not losing a love-sick stalker could be a challenge to one's sanity, with an unfulfilled prospect of romance making the other party even more manic in turn.  And never mind infidelities and jealousies and such, all the way down to mere social awkwardnesses, social exclusions, feeling unloved in a fortress full of couples(/triples/etc).  Potentially, you could just have a game in which characters develop romantic inclinations (or not) with each other and you have to juggle their encounters to keep things from exploding, and not even involve digging, wildlife, sieges, hordes (and hoardes), Clowns, etc...  Actually, I bet there's a game just like that.  A sort of 'Sims without the fancy resources, job training, etc' thing.

Not that this bare bones example would be my sort of game (can't manage my own life, at a social level!) but as the basis of a society's internal turmoil some less intensive but still viably complex background just seems to fit.  Not that I'd want to force it on anyone, I'm just in theorising mode on this issue, and like how people have latched onto what I may have mentioned, but also respect anyone who thinks it's step that shouldn't be taken (or not taken yet).  Partly why I think it might, like the Economy, be better as an INIT-controlled aspect.


The background calculations would (to my mind) be almost as simple as now...  Two additional psychological 'tendency' variables per dwarf, as I envisage it, would be needed upon their creation (but could even be kept out of the Psych screen[1]) and then the existing aquaintence/friendship/lover/spouse relationship level would just need to be potentially uncapped for MOTSS (and split into two unidirectional values, if currently stored as a single bidirectional one) and the variable factored into the friendship accumulation routine once it gets beyond 'mere' friendship (if not helping it get up to that stage, in the first place).  Certainly not anything like as complex or as continual as pathfinding equations, so the code could probably even afford to run in the background even if the INIT precluded it making any effects beyond the current standard.


[1] Unless people want them to be added.  e.g.: the usual seven-level (mid-point being null) psych output scale, with gendered-versions accordingly:
He/She is actively looking for a partner to have children with.He/She is aching for a bit of beard/feminine charm in his/her life.
He/She is a romantic, and has an eye for the opposite sex.He/She thinks there's something attractive in a same-sex partner.
He/She would marry the right woman/man, if he/she found them.He/She wouldn't deny the odd crush on fellow males/females
--
He/She tends not to go beyond friendship, with the opposite sex.He/she thinks same-sex relations are a little icky.
He/She has no inclination to take his/her female/male friendships further.He/she has no inclination to take his/her male/female friendships further.
He/She could never foresee him/herself marrying a female/male.Male/female friends are always just that, and no more.
...but I think it would work best without even bothering mentioning it, explicitly.  Apart from the difficulty in wording such statements in the first place, and possibly aligning it to skewing hetero tendencies towards the high levels and the other to low levels.  (Regardless of societal norms and acceptances, both for us and the dwarfs, the former, at least, would represent a biological imperative component...)  I had considered "[He/She] hates [men/women]", in all four combinations, but that implies mysogony/misandry more than any degree hetero-/homo-/bi-curiousity or acceptance.  There still lies the question of whether a dwarf's personal romantic interests should also affect what he/she thinks of others engaging in those kind of romantic interests.  And I also wouldn't rule out two perfectly compatible dwarfs sitting in the written-down band with the most anti (whichever)-sex relationship tendencies still falling in love with each other.  Might take a while of close working.)
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smariot

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #84 on: September 24, 2010, 06:57:48 am »

I don't think DF should explicitly have a [HOMOSEXUAL] tag, but it might be useful to use [MALE] and [FEMALE] just for selecting the correct pronouns in descriptions, and have caste tag describing the relative weights for the castes a particular caste can be impregnated by, and a similar tag for describing the castes this caste will marry.

Then you can have things like pregnant male seahorses, and same sex (or as far as the game is concerned, same caste) marriage.

I seem to have missed the obvious consequence of being able to have male and female mules, while still having them infertile.

Since you guys seem to have gotten slightly off topic, scat/urine might require the creation of a sewer system, which might be an interesting addition to the game; especially if you can harvest fertilizer or methane from it, or seal it off and accidentally destroy your fortress by having it build pressure and explode.

Rape could be part of a civilizations ethics. It might be limited to goblin civs at year 0, and maybe spread to non-goblins via all the non goblin children they abduct at birth learning the ethincs and then displacing the original goblin population. Of course rape first requires sex to be implemented. "Help, help, I'm being violated by spores!" just doesn't have the same urgency.
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Josephus

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #85 on: September 24, 2010, 07:08:14 am »

Since you guys seem to have gotten slightly off topic, scat/urine might require the creation of a sewer system, which might be an interesting addition to the game; especially if you can harvest fertilizer or methane from it, or seal it off and accidentally destroy your fortress by having it build pressure and explode.

This was gone over ad nauseam in the poop thread. Unfortunately, the prospect of sewers failed to entice the nay-sayers, so nothing was gained.
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Bohandas

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #86 on: September 24, 2010, 08:52:09 am »

...It was MORE common in ancient societys, then homosexualism.
And less...unnaturall....

Unnatural?
Homosexuality is seen all the time in the animal world. To name just a few examples

*bonobo apes are notorious for being willing to engage in frequent sexual activity with any other bonobo ape, regardless of gender

*At one point about a decade or two ago (I forget the exact dates), all of the penguins in the Philadelphia zoo's penguin exhibit were gay

and, of course, my favorite example:

*The sexual activity of the whiptail lizard, Cnemidophorus uniparens (sometimes classified as Aspidoscelis uniparens), a species lizard which is entirely female. They have evolved the ability to lay viable eggs without needing to be fertilized by a male's gametes, however, they cannot produce those eggs without engaging in some form of copulation (a throwback to ancestral species (who reproduced normally)). This results in the unusual (but nonetheless entirely natural) situation that in order to reproduce, a whiptail must engage in steamy lesbian lizard sex...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teiidae#Parthenogenesis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2394198/
http://www.nerve.com/content/the-science-of-sex-lesbian-lizards
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Grassland_Whiptail_Lizard
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Josephus

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #87 on: September 24, 2010, 09:07:52 am »

*bonobo apes are notorious for being willing to engage in frequent sexual activity with any other bonobo ape, regardless of gender

Frequent? Dude, they've internalized it. Sexing each other up is now as integral to bonobo society as handshakes are to westerners. Yes.
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Bohandas

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #88 on: September 24, 2010, 09:16:51 am »

A thought:
Maybe the dwarves themselves shouldn't know whether they're gay or not...

Do any of you read the Discworld novels by Terry Pratchett?
I just now remembered that there's a line in one of the books to the effect that the majority of dwarven courtship is concerned with trying to figure out what gender the other dwarf in the relationship is.
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Starver

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Re: Can we have homosexual dwarves?
« Reply #89 on: September 24, 2010, 10:30:07 am »

A thought:
Maybe the dwarves themselves shouldn't know whether they're gay or not...

Do any of you read the Discworld novels by Terry Pratchett?
I just now remembered that there's a line in one of the books to the effect that the majority of dwarven courtship is concerned with trying to figure out what gender the other dwarf in the relationship is.

Yes, it appears that a lot of us do.  (In fact, I happened to come to DF by way of a recommendation on the Discworld MUD.)

Discworld Dwarfs are a little different from DF ones, in that they are all traditionally male by reference.  Actually, "He" and "Him" is a gender-naming convention in non-Dwarf tongues, there's no "implication of maleness" in their own tongue...  For a non-dwarf to consider using (in their non-Dwarf speech) the terms "she", "her", etc, might be considered similar to someone using "it", etc, about a person of definite gender, or (by some) the singular form of "they" to short-cut "he/she" or "(s)he", and similar constructions.  It at the very least annoys the traditionalists.

By conventional outwards appearance, they are also all the same (which happens to conform with maleness), with their dress being (to humans) Masculine, and all biologically growing beards.  Some of the "gender revolution" reformers have started to experiment with variations on human female clothing (stiletto mining boots, and plaited beards, and indeed young Dwarfs of probable female gender have been openly enrolled in the Quirm School For Young Ladies, or whatever it's called again, adopting the school dress conventions) although I'm fairly sure that at the same time as not all gender-female dwarfs are adopting a gender-female dress-code, it's hinted that not all gender-female dressers are actually gender-female...  A kind of transexuality that really isn't much different (and probably can't be properly differentiated) from the new 'Cis-sexual' trend of the others...

Other than the beard, though, it seems clear that males and females know what they are...  Though it's probably on the same level of knowing whether one is right-handed or left-handed.  And, like sinister people of the recent yesteryears would generally be socially moulded into exhibiting standard dexter-like qualities.  (Only, I imagine, without the side-effects such as stuttering...)

Knowing what gender oneself is, one has a number of approaches to relationships.  Having an inclination towards partner-gender, and try to find out who matches that is probably an awkward way of doing it, and besides goes against the effectively genderless approach.  Instead, getting to know one's mine-mates, finding someone you are emotionally compatible with and then working with what you've got[1] is probably the way it's done.  This obviously leads to male-male and female-female matches, but that doesn't matter to Discworld Dwarf society.  The only real sign of an outward sign of combi-sexual relationships is a child being produced, and then I think that's it's essentially not of interest "who is the woman" in the coupling (to paraphrase the question used by bigots and heterosexual innocents newly enlightened as to the practices).  The "maiden aunt" pairings and the "confirmed bachelor" ones merge with the childless male/female ones.  And who knows which couples are parents to adopted children (e.g. Carrot, although I think it's said that his "mother" is actually a viable mother) or of a "parent-and-parent's-partner" type of family

In Dwarf culture what matters is the smooth running of the mine, and with longevity in the race there's not so much need for the kind of population explosion that purely hetero-couples would produce.


A distinct exception to all of the above, and the stereotypes, is Cassanundra.  If a true Dwarf by nature, he is almost certainly no longer a True Dwarf in the "halal"/"kosher" sense, having shaved his beard, in the fashion of a foppish courtier and travelled in the world of man (although mostly in the boudouirs of Ladies, he would definitely have you believe, from which he seems to probably try to progress into their underthings, with an unknown but assumed level of success, with the help of his stepladders).

Anyway, that's how I see it.  There's probably some minor details different from the likes of that given in the Discworld Companions, assorted other official and/or fan-written interpretations and of course the writings of PTerry himself...


[1] edit: It's at this point where the "trying to figure out what the gender of the other dwarf is" part happens, and probably more to prepare themselves for what kind of relationship they're leading themselves into than into making sure "they get what they want" out of it...  After all, emotionally and psychologically compatible is emotionally and psychologically compatible...  Or so I envisage it.  I know there are other interpretations of the way the phrase is used[2].

[2] A phrase that first occurs very early in the Discworld Canon, not too long after the start of the series when the Discworld was not so Well Formed as a literary construct, which may also explain why Carrot does refer to "Mum and Dad" as opposed to some form of "Parent and parent", in the first place...  Or his tradition-flexible parents, already non-isolationist to the world of non-Dwarf peoples and inclined to raise a human child (yet one that all but the ultra-traditionalists still consider to be a True Dwarf) are open to the kind of sexuality dimorphism exhibited outside Dwarf-kind.  Anyway, YGTI.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 11:05:28 am by Starver »
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