Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Grey_313]

Homosexuality is pretty gross, we shouldn't have the gays in Dwarf Fortress

This is Earl_Grey from the IRC channel. I can tell you with 100% confidence that he's just trolling you guys after being made aware of this thread. Just ignore it.

And he's been reported for it. I still don't like him.

Huh, so homophobia is a reportable offense now?

[Ø]

It would be more "politically incorrect" (and downright socially irresponsible) to look the other way entirely and pretend a concept/group doesn't exist just because they might be mistreated in a video game. The most socially responsible thing to do would be exactly what Toady said: To include it in a naturalistic way that doesn't take into account modern political hubbub at all.

Look, I don't think you're getting it. Closely follow my answer below.

Yes, lets. And stop calling my community a "hot-button social group."

They have rights rallies, activists, organizations... They're actively fighting for rights and recognition, and there are still people opposing it.

They have organizations that will target people for just saying something offensive. It's not a good idea to include them in a game full of politically incorrect things. Adding anything from Jews to black people would allow for politically incorrect things as well, but they don't have as zealous activists right now.

I think modeling real world social groups is great, but for this specific group, it's just not a good idea when so much as saying "gay space marine" will require an apology. The fact that it IS a hot button social group IS a reason TO ignore it WHEN it is in a game full of politically incorrect potential.

[Vaftrudner]

Seriously, some of you guys need to take a step back and listen to what you're saying and think about it for a second.

I was thinking the same thing.

Just because there are a lot of people who (for one reason or not) don't like gay people,

No, I'm saying it probably shouldn't be added because the game also includes genocide, murder, mass abduction, and slaughter. The fact that it already includes these ISN'T justification to throw in the possibility of modern political incorrectness.

Again, Would you want gays to be specifically represented in that serial killer rougelike? Or if this was the 1960's, black people in a serial killer simulator? Not the fact that they're gay or black and people don't care for them, but the fact that they're specifically represented in a...

Oh fuck it. Yes, lets throw in hot-button social groups into the mass murder simulator.

I'm gay, and I still can't be offended by that crazy Russian wanting to exterminate all homosexuals in his fort. Why? Because it's a sandbox game, and if people want to do disgusting, childish stuff, they should be free to. And in the end, it's just a game. If he's an ass to real gay people, that pisses me off, but what he does in-game doesn't hurt anyone. Now, you're speaking about homosexuals as if we're something delicate that should be protected by keeping us out of the horrible genocide sim. Frankly, DF is one of the best potential arenas for homosexuals to be depicted realistically since it already isn't bugged down by gender stereotypes. Gay dwarves would simply be dwarves. Mistreated, disemboweled, melted, extremely unhappy tortured dwarves, just like other dwarves. And the thought of that makes me happy. Additionally, I'm astounded that it's still a hot-button subject in some places, I live in a country where we have universal gender-neutral marriage (Sweden) and only a small insane minority protests. Which is another reason homophobes don't piss me off anymore, they're fighting a losing battle

[forsaken1111]

Homosexuality is pretty gross, we shouldn't have the gays in Dwarf Fortress

This is Earl_Grey from the IRC channel. I can tell you with 100% confidence that he's just trolling you guys after being made aware of this thread. Just ignore it.

And he's been reported for it. I still don't like him.

Huh, so homophobia is a reportable offense now?

No, but trolling is.

Actually anything is reportable, it is up to the mods to determine what counts as an offense.

[G-Flex]

Huh, so homophobia is a reportable offense now?

Actually, yes, people have gotten banned for saying intolerant/hateful things before, including towards homosexuals.

That's hardly the issue here though, since you aren't actually homophobic; you're just trolling.

If he's an ass to real gay people, that pisses me off, but what he does in-game doesn't hurt anyone.

Coming from a place where homophobia actually is a problem and gay rights (well, gender-neutral rights, really) are a very touchy subject, I would say otherwise. If someone's going to talk about how likely he is to torch all his gay dwarves in-game, I'd say there's a very, very likely chance that he actually harbors intolerance/naivete/misgivings towards gay people, even if only in a casual sense. I can see why you'd feel like this is just sort of dumb and inconsequential if you come from a country where this isn't really an issue, but here, a surprising percentage of adults have that kind of attitude, and it's actually a serious problem. Not that I disagree with you about the inclusion of gender issues in DF.

[Ø]

You know what forget it. And I'm not sarcastic this time when I say "yes, lets".

BUT, remember that while yes there's crazy gay protesters out there (NOT the reason), and while it may not offend you (Not the reason), there's also crazy rights activists that will pressure you for so much as saying something offensive. Now imagine modeling them in a mass murder simulation game.

But to say it should specifically be excluded no matter how detailed the simulation gets is asinine.

It's not socially irresponsible to gloss over them, it's just ducking a possible shitfest.

[Toady One]

Grey_313 is gone.

It seems like it'll be impossible to keep this thread together, since I'll just be called back in every day, but I'll leave it open for now.  I haven't read back through it all yet, so I might change my mind or warn some people or whatever.  There are certainly reports.

[G-Flex]

there's also crazy rights activists that will pressure you for so much as saying something offensive

Then they, quite frankly, can go piss up a rope for fighting the wrong battle in the wrong place at the wrong time, particularly if the game isn't actually biased against them in any way (and it wouldn't be).

This game is in the relatively unique position of not having to worry about commercial backing or anything like that. This affords it the opportunity to handle the issue with due respect, and I think doing the right thing in this case is worthwhile even if it means that a select few people or groups might get mad about it, which I'm not sure would even happen.

[Vaftrudner]

If he's an ass to real gay people, that pisses me off, but what he does in-game doesn't hurt anyone.

Coming from a place where homophobia actually is a problem and gay rights (well, gender-neutral rights, really) are a very touchy subject, I would say otherwise. If someone's going to talk about how likely he is to torch all his gay dwarves in-game, I'd say there's a very, very likely chance that he actually harbors intolerance/naivete/misgivings towards gay people, even if only in a casual sense. I can see why you'd feel like this is just sort of dumb and inconsequential if you come from a country where this isn't really an issue, but here, a surprising percentage of adults have that kind of attitude, and it's actually a serious problem. Not that I disagree with you about the inclusion of gender issues in DF.

My point is still, and maybe it didn't come across, that keeping homosexuals out of the game because they may be mistreated by hateful players is doing it on the terms of homophobes. Adding gay dwarves simply as dwarves with a romantic/sexual preference, and not as a stereotype, is representing homosexuals positively, and to keep away from it because they may be as gutted as anything else does not help homosexuals anywhere, it only serves to marginalize them.

[G-Flex]

I agree.

I find it kind of amusing/ironic that a game about dwarves fighting goblins and digging for gold has an opportunity to, in theory, be more progressive about gender identity and sexual orientation than, well, almost any others you see (seriously, how often do you see gay men in any game?), especially since it could also represent the differences in those things across cultures and races.


I mean, when you think about it, those things vary a lot even among human cultures on this planet, in our history, never mind fantasy races and that sort of thing. Elves are immortal tree-dwellers, for instance, and that's bound to have an impact on their society in a lot of ways; perhaps they don't even really have a concept of marriage or of nuclear family. Just as an example.

[Ø]

Bury it in a massive update to sexuality including everything from bisexuality to polygamy, and then I'd also doubt it could get picked up as an issue by zealots.

[Vaftrudner]

I agree.

I find it kind of amusing/ironic that a game about dwarves fighting goblins and digging for gold has an opportunity to, in theory, be more progressive about gender identity and sexual orientation than, well, almost any others you see (seriously, how often do you see gay men in any game?), especially since it could also represent the differences in those things across cultures and races.


I mean, when you think about it, those things vary a lot even among human cultures on this planet, in our history, never mind fantasy races and that sort of thing. Elves are immortal tree-dwellers, for instance, and that's bound to have an impact on their society in a lot of ways; perhaps they don't even really have a concept of marriage or of nuclear family. Just as an example.

It's not that ironic to me. Because it's set in a fantasy setting, the society it depicts does not have the same cultural baggage as ours, so it has a freedom to express identities in a way completely different from ours. Just take the Battlestar Galactica remake, that can discuss anything and treat polyamorous/homosexual relationships as natural and non-controversial. And yeah, I'm tired of not seeing gay people in games because people shy away from it, and those who are controversial just for controversy's sake just add super-camp gay men as comic relief, and lesbians as porn. I think it's likely to change though. We see more and more realistic depictions of gay people in other media.

[Brandon816]

Dwarf fortress is the LAST game you want a hot-button social group to be in.

...
Dwarf fortress has racism (kill the elves, "I'll cut down whatever trees I want"), ageism (kill the children, "that will teach you not to work"), sexism (kill the females, "no more catplosion/babies"), and genocide (kill everyone, "it's too crowded in here"). It's also possible to kill off all important figures of one or more religions, drown all nobles, and put down anyone who is permanently injured. I don't agree with the statement that just because homosexuality is a "hot-button social group" it shouldn't be included within DF. At this point, it honestly wouldn't even matter.

From a coding standpoint, adding simply a straight/gay tag, creating gay couples in game, and making the sexuality viewable in the details screen of a dwarf (or any creature) wouldn't be too difficult at all.

The only two legitimate reasons against this suggestion are that it wouldn't add any real meaningful gameplay (at this time, it would only mean no spores coming from that dwarf) and that there is far more important functionality that could be added right now (i.e. better adventurer mode).

And if players of DF or their parents don't like this feature, then simply add a line in the init that turns it off, along with seiges and weather.

[G-Flex]

Yeah, I remember playing Vampire: Bloodlines and finding it kind of telling that if you were a female character, you could seduce both men and women, but as a male character you could seduce only men. Not that I think it was anything intentional on the developers' part, but still it says something about cultural norms.


The reason I say it's ironic is more because I don't know if people would expect this game to have the purpose (or even accidental function) of providing positive social messages, especially considering all the absurd and awful stuff you can currently do in it (although that won't necessarily be the case forever).

[Ø]

And yeah, I'm tired of not seeing gay people in games because people shy away from it

Don't forget that in a game which goes in depth into fewer than a dozen characters (often less than half a dozen... often not even in depth either), it's also statistically unlikely to see someone who's gay.

Dwarf fortress has racism ...weather.

Nice job jumping in late.
"BUT, remember ... crazy rights activists that will pressure you for so much as saying something offensive. Now imagine modeling them in a mass murder simulation game."
The fact the other things are in doesn't justify adding in something that has actively zealous activists.
"It's not socially irresponsible to gloss over them, it's just ducking a possible shitfest."

Now if you don't think that could be a problem, then fine.