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[thistleknot]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I just downloaded the DT with role suggestions and have some comments.

I have two guys, both of whom are legendary miners +5.  They both started simultaneously and worked in the same burrow, going from 0 skill to legendary +0 in dirt, then moved to stone, and I watched them.  I have to say, the most important thing (and possibly only thing) about a miner is agility.  I've seen this several times.  In the race to legendary, which is all that I would think is really worth caring about, a more agile miner will win by a mile, because they move more quickly between dig sites.

Here they are:

Code: [Select]

            Kubukdatur Otungerib
Willpower       1,269     1,015
Strength        2,104       762
Toughness       1,552     1,414
Endurance       1,198       808
Spatial           879     2,267
Kinesthetic       433     1,051

Agility           818     1,397

You have to drill out about 15 11x11 rooms in order to hit legendary from zero.  When the second guy hit legendary the first guy still had to dig out like four or five more rooms, so when the second guy had dug out 15 rooms, the other guy had dug out 10 or 11, I think closer to 10 actually.  So the second guy was like 1.5x faster.  The second guy was sent to dig stone while the other guy stayed in dirt, so the second guy slowed down and the other guy caught up quite a bit.  Even so the second guy was 1500 experience ahead when the caravan arrived.

Unless spatial sense and kinesthetic sense are really that important, it's pretty obvious that agility wins here.

I have a snapshot taken at embark, and you rate the first guy at 60.5% and the second guy at 53.01%, even though the second guy was dramatically better.

I would weight agility massively higher in your system -- as is, you don't even include it as an attribute for a miner.

Thanks for the suggestion.  You have to understand the .ini file is tweakable.  Splinterz made up the .ini based on the wiki for attributes and did an enormous job coding them in.  It is completely customizable as users may want to apply various tweaks, I made a close combat dwarf modded role: http://i39.tinypic.com/2nia4ht.jpg

Since there are differences in opinions, it's probably impossible to make a single document that covers everyone's contributions, it could be done though... maybe a pastebin .ini?

[DwarfEngineer]

I'm hitting a pretty big snag with the OS X version of therapist. I'm not sure if anyone has posted a similar issue or not, but I didn't see anything in the last 10 or so pages.

I'm running OS X 10.7, with DF 34.05, and using graphics/phoebus. I get the following:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Anyone else seen this, or have any ideas?

Great work on the mac version, by the way. It's been nice having more regular maintenance/updates. 

Haven't quite worked out why it happens, but you can fix it by going to File > Clear user settings...
This will of course clear your user settings, so export / import what you can.

[munki]

Oh, awesome...I have no custom settings, so that doesn't bother me one bit.

Hooray! DF is playable once more. My hero.

[DwarfEngineer]

v0.34.06 Layouts Updated

Layouts are posted for all 3 operating systems and should download automatically.
Note, this is for vanilla Dwarf Therapist only, see post above for splinterz' release.

Direct Download Links:

• Windows (Graphics) v0.34.06
• Windows (Legacy) v0.34.06
• Linux v0.34.06
• Mac OSX v0.34.06

These files have been updated with the correct offsets for job & recheck equipment.
You'll have to manually download them, then copy them to your DwarfFortress directory/etc/memory_layouts/<os>

On linux, this is in /usr/share/dwarftherapist,
On mac, you'll have to right click on Dwarf Therapist and click view package contents, then it's under Contents/MacOS

Alternatively you can delete the old file and restart therapist.
Sorry about the screw up.

[Weazal]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I just downloaded the DT with role suggestions and have some comments.

I have two guys, both of whom are legendary miners +5.  They both started simultaneously and worked in the same burrow, going from 0 skill to legendary +0 in dirt, then moved to stone, and I watched them.  I have to say, the most important thing (and possibly only thing) about a miner is agility.  I've seen this several times.  In the race to legendary, which is all that I would think is really worth caring about, a more agile miner will win by a mile, because they move more quickly between dig sites.

Here they are:

Code: [Select]

            Kubukdatur Otungerib
Willpower       1,269     1,015
Strength        2,104       762
Toughness       1,552     1,414
Endurance       1,198       808
Spatial           879     2,267
Kinesthetic       433     1,051

Agility           818     1,397

You have to drill out about 15 11x11 rooms in order to hit legendary from zero.  When the second guy hit legendary the first guy still had to dig out like four or five more rooms, so when the second guy had dug out 15 rooms, the other guy had dug out 10 or 11, I think closer to 10 actually.  So the second guy was like 1.5x faster.  The second guy was sent to dig stone while the other guy stayed in dirt, so the second guy slowed down and the other guy caught up quite a bit.  Even so the second guy was 1500 experience ahead when the caravan arrived.

Unless spatial sense and kinesthetic sense are really that important, it's pretty obvious that agility wins here.

I have a snapshot taken at embark, and you rate the first guy at 60.5% and the second guy at 53.01%, even though the second guy was dramatically better.

I would weight agility massively higher in your system -- as is, you don't even include it as an attribute for a miner.

Thanks for the suggestion.  You have to understand the .ini file is tweakable.  Splinterz made up the .ini based on the wiki for attributes and did an enormous job coding them in.  It is completely customizable as users may want to apply various tweaks, I made a close combat dwarf modded role: http://i39.tinypic.com/2nia4ht.jpg

Since there are differences in opinions, it's probably impossible to make a single document that covers everyone's contributions, it could be done though... maybe a pastebin .ini?

How awesome would it be for a sub-interface to create roles inside DT itself?  Slider bars with minimum and maximum markers to set acceptable ranges for skills attributes and more for a specific role. Minimum is probably all that's necessary for most roles but I can think of instances maximums might also be useful. Check boxes for jobs and skills and sliders for the skill level acceptable. Same for attributes. Or even better, add skills/attribute from list to the role so it's not a huge list of checkboxes. I wish I knew how to make this happen on my own. So exciting to think about the possibilities.

Thank you so much for this amazing program. With roles, attribute averages and more, it's growing and being more useful with every release.
Truely awesome.

[thistleknot]

Weazel,

A gui is the next logical step.  The script editor supports a lot.  We did anaysis of min/maxs (I contriubted a 3300 dwarf population to the attribute wiki), but upon further analysis we found the data folllowed a bell curve.  One could code a hard max limit into the script engine, but... good luck trying to impelement that into a bell curve without extra math.

Btw agility max hovers around 1500, memory 2500, a lot of the rest r around 2000 or 2200.

[splinterz]

i've updated my previous post with a new package with the proper recheck equipment offests if you haven't already modified your ini files.

I just downloaded the DT with role suggestions and have some comments.

I have two guys, both of whom are legendary miners +5.  They both started simultaneously and worked in the same burrow, going from 0 skill to legendary +0 in dirt, then moved to stone, and I watched them.  I have to say, the most important thing (and possibly only thing) about a miner is agility.  I've seen this several times.  In the race to legendary, which is all that I would think is really worth caring about, a more agile miner will win by a mile, because they move more quickly between dig sites.

-snip

I would weight agility massively higher in your system -- as is, you don't even include it as an attribute for a miner.

that's a very good point. as Thistleknot mentioned, i simply used the wiki as a guide for creating the default role sets. i'll consider changing the default role, but for now you can simply override the default by creating a custom role in your dwarf therapist.ini with the same name. which is a nice segue into the next point brought up:

How awesome would it be for a sub-interface to create roles inside DT itself?

this is the next thing i'd like to implement to finish up the role feature. i agree with Thistleknot that slider bars for min/max probably aren't going to work with the way role ratings are calculated. better would be to give those aspects you wanted valued more a higher weight. i'm thinking just a simple select an attribute/skill/trait and give it a weight, repeat, until you've defined your role.

[Weazal]

Ah, gotcha. I got ahead of myself being excited about the idea that I overlooked that roles just select skills, traits and attributes to display the values for. I'm not sure how the weights work as I've not had a chance to mess with them yet. They sound like what I'm looking for. Getting 34.06 sorted and going to test them with a new fort now.

better would be to give those aspects you wanted valued more a higher weight. i'm thinking just a simple select an attribute/skill/trait and give it a weight, repeat, until you've defined your role.

That's exactly what I had in mind.

Really glad to hear you intend to implement it and I'm lookin' forward to it.
Thank you for all your hard work!

[Intrinsic]

Thanks for the updates!

The note on agility is good, just like the note i found about creativity having a pretty substantial effect on crafting.

[brucemo]

that's a very good point. as Thistleknot mentioned, i simply used the wiki as a guide for creating the default role sets. i'll consider changing the default role, but for now you can simply override the default by creating a custom role in your dwarf therapist.ini with the same name. which is a nice segue into the next point brought up:

Yes.  The idea is very cute, but if the wiki contains information that is mostly false, untested, and/or unimplemented, features implemented based upon this are of questionable value.  Really, unless you are role-playing, there has to be some testable outcome.  Role-playing is nice, but if the tool is telling me the wrong guy should be my miner, that's not helpful, and mining is one of the few things it's possible to really test well.  I best there is a direct relation between mining speed and agility, and what else is there to mining except that?  Maybe one guy might sleep more than than the other guy, but if agility dominates, it dominates.  And it's possible to find this out.

I'll do more research.

[Intrinsic]

The associated attributes on the wiki actually come from Toady himself which he listed in a FoTF reply:

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=60554.msg1413312#msg1413312

[Teehee]

Hmm. The migration waves don't sort properly in my DT even with the new ini file DE posted. Using the linux version.

[Teehee]

Hmm. The migration waves don't sort properly in my DT even with the new ini file DE posted. Using the linux version.

Setting turn_count=0x053b fixed it. Got help from sandbox on irc. <3

[DwarfEngineer]

Hmm. The migration waves don't sort properly in my DT even with the new ini file DE posted. Using the linux version.

Setting turn_count=0x053b fixed it. Got help from sandbox on irc. <3

I fixed the layouts for both osx & linux. See above for instructions on downloading the new layout.

[thistleknot]

...
Yes.  The idea is very cute, but if the wiki contains information that is mostly false, untested, and/or unimplemented, features implemented based upon this are of questionable value.  Really, unless you are role-playing, there has to be some testable outcome.  Role-playing is nice, but if the tool is telling me the wrong guy should be my miner, that's not helpful, and mining is one of the few things it's possible to really test well.  I best there is a direct relation between mining speed and agility, and what else is there to mining except that?  Maybe one guy might sleep more than than the other guy, but if agility dominates, it dominates.  And it's possible to find this out.

I'll do more research.

On this same page here http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=66525.msg3124821#msg3124821
Its stated that toady specified the weights.

Ah, gotcha. I got ahead of myself being excited about the idea that I overlooked that roles just select skills, traits and attributes to display the values for. I'm not sure how the weights work as I've not had a chance to mess with them yet. They sound like what I'm looking for. Getting 34.06 sorted and going to test them with a new fort now.

I spoke with Splinterz, he's going to put how the formula is calculated in the documentation on the next release.  For now... I'll specify it right here:

The formula originally was based on Weighted Mean's.  Which I felt was limited as weights were really (weight/(sum of weights))=max % that that weight could provide to the overall weight, I felt this was a limit as some attributes (at the time I was merely working with attributes) might have a value far above, or below the mean, and should be able to contribute more to the overall % when it does so.

I did some stuff with excel testing different possibilities out, and came up with a new formula, bounced it back and forth against Splinterz, who suggested a sum of distribution curves (which was an idea I had as well, but he implemented it first, albeit not as well as the current implementation).

The current implementation is:
All lists of attributes, skills, traits involved with a role are converted to their respective z-scores (i.e. for attributes: (attribute value-attribute mean)/standard deviation), which standardizes the data (i.e. similar in concept to converting them to their respective %, but instead converts them to a + or - number representing it's position below or above the mean.  The importance of this step is to ensure each attribute, skill, and weight have the same scale before "weighting" i.e. factoring them.), then each list is factored by it's weight.  Each standard deviation then equals the same as the weight value (z scores have a natural standard deviation of 1, i.e. the same scale concept mentioned prior).  I indeed verified that a weighted z-score's new standard deviation is the same as the weight via scalc/excel.  Then within each category: (i.e. attributes, traits, skills) their respective z-scores are summed together.  Standard Deviations for each category are quadrature'd together (i.e. sum the squares of the deviations, then square root that sum.  Verified via Math.reddit.com, and other statistic websites).

So now we have 3 new lists:  A summed Z-score of Attributes, Weights, and Skills, and each has their new respective standard deviation.

In v8, I failed to re-scale each category to their respective z-scores (as a sum of zscores changes the scale from sdev of 1 to whatever it is now, so now... they need to be rescaled to standard deviation of 1), we also failed to quadrature things together, and I was doing an averaging of values, and a root mean square of standard deviations, which was not correct.  So we did that again (convert each list to it's respective z-score) with the skills, weights, and attribute's summed values.  Then we weighted them, same with the standard deviations.  Then added each category's z-scores together, and again quadrature'd the (weighted/factored) standard deviations to get a final list of summed z-scores and a new standard deviation.

This list is ran through a normal cumulative distribution function, then multiplied by 1000 to get the final %