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[Kogut]

This stuff seems like it would be within the vision statement.

is not intended to create a ‘game outside of the game’ in manners that extend game functionality (such as command-chaining or macros)

[ral]

The whole "custom professions" thing is essentially a macro. It allows you to enable/disable several labors in one shot, which would be a macro.

In any case the idea of lua scripting would not be to implement something like custom professions; the purpose would be to allow people to write scripts to look over their dwarves and print out a list of dwarves that, because of their attributes, aren't very suited to their enabled labors, for example.

Even if we ignore the fact that "custom professions" violate the vision statement, something that's completely read-only certainly wouldn't.

[Valience]

The more I see people argue about the darn vision statement, the more I wish someone would just fork it and make a branch that would implement some of this stuff.

Things such as the livestock menu should be well in the vision statement. It's basically just letting you see more than just your dwarves, but see the same information.

The lua scripting should also be in the vision statement if it were limited to doing something similar to what was suggested. "Oh no, you ran a lua script which spat out a list of suggested job based on the pages of information you already have available in various locations in the game and on the wiki, you're cheating!" Get of your high horse. If I don't have the time to memorize which stats are best for every job in the game and would like a script to recommend possible good matches, that's damn well a "decision support tool" to me.

---

I'd like to see some of the bugs that have been around for the past few releases fixed before anything else though. Such as strength/agility/toughess always displaying -1 and the complete lack of mental attribute reporting.

[Jeoshua]

You guys do realize there are other programs in development currently that do just what you're basically bitching about, right?

I mean, I wouldn't dislike having options for livestock, or suggested professions, or something like that.

But DwarfEngineer has a certain program he's made, and is going a certain direction with it.  It's already basically required to play DF.  And to ask him to do anything with this program that he doesn't want to do, then get upset when he doesn't want to do it just because it's been requested, is not only rude... it's insane.

You're not the coder.  Do you even comprehend how complex a program can get?  How difficult it can be to get a single thing working the way one wants?  If you do, you're a programmer.  Please, do it yourself.  We will probably download and use it.  But until you do so, please... stop trying to force others to do the work for you.

That is all.

[ral]

The thing is, the vision statement really doesn't matter. I mean the thing is already contradictory. All that matters is whether the guy in charge of the project arbitrarily wants to include something or not. The vision statement is really just causing confusion. It would probably be better to just replace it with "submit an idea and if the project owner likes it and you write the code then it will be included".

I wouldn't say that I'm "bitching", just that the lua idea seems to me like a good fit, based on the vision statement, and thus saying it doesn't shows that the vision statement is just unclear and causing confusion. If I'm bitching about anything it's just the lack of clarity and confusion caused by the vision statement.

Personally, I'm unwilling to fork the project and I'm not interested in arguing with anyone, especially those not making decisions, so all I really care about is the arbitrary decision of whoever owns this project.

[Ledi]

Oh... kay. Didn't expect my silly little idea of a livestock manager to side-by-side the dwarf manager would get people to blow up like this.

Although to be honest, I really can't see where it falls outside of the vision statement, as it's doing what it already does, just to a different group of objects.

Where is a livestock manager already in development, Jeo? I'd like to poke at it and see how it's going.

[profit]

Oh... kay. Didn't expect my silly little idea of a livestock manager to side-by-side the dwarf manager would get people to blow up like this.

Although to be honest, I really can't see where it falls outside of the vision statement, as it's doing what it already does, just to a different group of objects.

Where is a livestock manager already in development, Jeo? I'd like to poke at it and see how it's going.

'

It was not your livestock manager, it was the suggestion to combine DT and runesmith.  Your livestock manager fell directly inline with the vision statement.

And the person above is incorrect, there is nothing contradictory with the main program and the vision statement.   There are some bugs people wanted to keep in place for a while, but they were never meant to be there.    They are just a bug that gained popularity so they were kept in place as an option since they were already there. 

[ral]

Who ultimately decides what falls within the vision statement?

[profit]

Who ultimately decides what falls within the vision statement?

The maintainer/coder.

In this case DwarfEngineer.

[JanusTwoface]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the vision statement as it stands was written by chmod (the originally author of Dwarf Therapist) and hasn't been updated for over a year. While the current vision statment is surely up to the new maintainer (Dwarf Engineer), it isn't impossible that he might change it.

For that matter, it's an open source project. Seems like it wouldn't be that terribly hard to fork the project, add more features, and possibly submit a patch to the main version.

[devek]

That really isn't a good idea.

Therapist is really good at what it does, it isn't going to be so good at doing things outside of that.

[JanusTwoface]

It's not good at doing things that it doesn't do?  Who'd thunk?

[Valience]

You guys do realize there are other programs in development currently that do just what you're basically bitching about, right?

I mean, I wouldn't dislike having options for livestock, or suggested professions, or something like that.

But DwarfEngineer has a certain program he's made, and is going a certain direction with it.  It's already basically required to play DF.  And to ask him to do anything with this program that he doesn't want to do, then get upset when he doesn't want to do it just because it's been requested, is not only rude... it's insane.

You're not the coder.  Do you even comprehend how complex a program can get?  How difficult it can be to get a single thing working the way one wants?  If you do, you're a programmer.  Please, do it yourself.  We will probably download and use it.  But until you do so, please... stop trying to force others to do the work for you.

That is all.

Every post of you're I've been unlucky enough to come across is you talking down to people and kissing the ass of anyone who has made a line of code. Granted, maybe I've just been unlucky enough to catch you in threads that you're agitated with, but it's really become quite annoying. You could just as easily let the project lead come and say no, or link to where they said no, instead of getting all greater than thou at everyone. My beef isn't with the maintainer saying no, which if he came in here and said it bluntly on the first post or even on the project forums, I would accept. It's actually all the people who come in and instead of simply linking to an answer on said subject or waiting till the person in charge says something, decide that they need to go off about how it doesn't fit with hot they interpret the vision statement or is hard to do and time is better spent elsewhere. As you yourself said, if you aren't coding the tool, trying to force it where you think it should go is rude and insane, right?

Further, great, there are more programs in development. So, why not just collaborate with those people and add the features into DT?  Surely having one program with the ability to do several tasks is better than needing to download and run countless programs in addition to the game itself. It would even add value to DT, making it overall a better product. Shoudl it be an all-in-wonder program? No. If something fits with it being a "decision support tool", then frankly it should probably be added.

[ral]

For that matter, it's an open source project. Seems like it wouldn't be that terribly hard to fork the project, add more features, and possibly submit a patch to the main version.

Forking the project means that someone has to maintain it, and merge new features into the source tree when they're added to the mainline version. It seems difficult enough to find one person who wants to maintain DT so getting two to do it and spend enough time to keep up with both would be even more difficult.

At least when it comes to the lua thing, I'd sooner just create my own fancy gui version of dfusion or something using dfhack or something rather than fork DT just to add some limited lua support.

[Toady One]

Please cool things down in here a little.