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[Andeerz]

As long as the level of reality in the game isn't needlessly and arbitrarily being manipulated, in order to cater to particularly insipid anachronisms, then I'm very happy to see things like drugs be made optional.

As long as the option does exist.

Amen, brotha!

Also:

Start a post about medical drugs for DF. This one is about pipes and smoking tobacco like plants.

The use of drugs for pleasure and for medical use are highly related and relevant to each other, and the same goes for tobacco as with many other drugs (and check this out if you don't believe me: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1079499/).  I think discussion about both is necessary if drugs are going to go in for their realistic reasons and have realistic consequences. 

[harborpirate]

The use of drugs for pleasure and for medical use are highly related and relevant to each other, and the same goes for tobacco as with many other drugs.  I think discussion about both is necessary if drugs are going to go in for their realistic reasons and have realistic consequences.

As I mentioned before, I think this is one case where realism breaks the ambiance/mood/setting of the game. There have to remain some things that aren't realistic; things like alchemy, magic, and the general sense of wonder that a fantasy setting imbues.

Plants that have completely unrealistic, magical effects when smoked or eaten? I'd be much more likely to accept that than turning DF into some sort of faux medieval drug cartel simulator. I suppose this is like the slavery thread - some people are completely opposed to it being in the game at all because the mere thought of it is disgusting to them. I'm there when it comes to drugs.

At this point, I'm starting to agree with whoever suggested that we just leave it at pipe production and chuck the idea of smoking.

[harborpirate]

Gah, double post.

[Andeerz]

Perhaps I shouldn't throw around the words "realistic" and "realism" so much.  When I say the game should be realistic, what I really mean is aspects of the game should exhibit verisimilitude, regardless of whether or not the aspect is something in real life or not.  Basically, if something like drugs or magic or whatever is in the game, it should have a believable (within the context of the universe it is set in!!!) impact on things; on the lives of dwarves or whoever and through that the economy, civilizational development, how you design your fort, culture, etc. 

A good example of what I would consider the opposite of what I suggest is magic in a game like Final Fantasy 8 or something.  Outside of the context of battle, magic seems to have no believable or perceptible impact on life other than the occasional colorful decorative doodad or super contrived plot device; basically it's only there for flavor, and a superficial flavor at that.  Life operates largely as if magic as portrayed in the battle system does not exist, or at the very least the story doesn't convince me otherwise.  How does it make sense to be able to summon a gargantuan beast to do your bidding, bring people back from the dead, cure diseases, heal wounds, burn/freeze things at will and have no way of using these seemingly useful powers to move a simple obstacle out of your way, revive a murdered or mortally injured friend after a cutscene, or obviate the need for things like hospitals and combustion engines or something.  Having something implemented in a game in that sort of fashion is what breaks the ambiance/mood/setting of a game for me.  It detracts from whatever story is trying to tell, as the setting ceases to be compelling and immersive.

And this is sort of an exaggerated version of having pipes or other drug paraphernalia in the game and no way to use them for believable purposes (other than trade... so in that way it's leaps and bounds ahead of the FF magic example).  They are just there for flavor and have no bearing on what the game is about: simulating a fantasy world and, in particular, simulating the management and establishment of a settlement and an economy.  If things like tobacco or any other drug is going to be in the game, they should bring something to the table that advances the game further towards what it is about.  In this case, why not (when the game is ready for it) have it bring to the table the unique and important things that drugs do IRL and through that their significant influences on civilization and everyday life, both good and bad?

[Interus]

That sorta reminded me of Dominic Deegan, because I remember one post from the writer that he liked being able to explain things that modern society has as being developed because magic was available to solve that problem.  Magic in that universe isn't something that only exists sometimes.

I think that things like using cups to drink booze would need to be handled before you could have pipes that allowed you to smoke whatever it is dwarves smoke.  Once that's in place, I kinda like the idea of a dwarf relaxing with a tobacco pipe, but I'm pretty sure the image in my head is from like the 18th and 19th century.  I'm fond of the idea of tobacco as an added addiction to booze, although I don't see it replacing it for dwarves.  Maybe just boosting happiness.  If multiple races where playable(somebody mentioned that somewhere) I imagine that it'd be more like the booze for elves than an alternate for dwarves.  Elves like using plants right?

In addition to using pipes for smoking, I also like the idea somebody mentioned in here that smoke from burnt plants has an effect in general, and could be used for religious ceremonies and such, once those are implemented too.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Verisimilitude is a very good word, and I think that our society, and technology, has grown to the point where it may become a lot more important, in the near future.

Here's one definition of verisimilitude that I got from the Internet:

'The sense that what one reads is "real," or at least realistic and believable. For instance, the reader possesses a sense of verisimilitude when reading a story in which a character cuts his finger, and the finger bleeds.'

If you alter that statement slighty, to 'The sense that what one experiences', you can see how that might be relevant to our video game scene.

It's just too bad the word's so damn long...

Here's a proposal: 'Veris' is a (slang) word, that I just made up, that means "Any virtual experience which attempts to closely approach a sense of reality, and which maintains that sense of "this is real", internally consistent with itself.' How much veris a virtual experience has, defines it's ability to submerge it's audience in that experience, while simultaneously suspending their belief.

'Veris' is the noun. The verb is 'veri'. To make something more "real", more deeply immersive, more consistent, is to "veri it up", or to make it "very veri"

We shall all use this term, from now on, so that the squares

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

("square" is another great slang word, which I'm hereby resurrecting for modern use. It means people who can't think outside of the box) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_(slang))

won't know what we're talking about.

[Auto Slaughter]

Verisimilitude is a synonym of truthiness, with the exception that truthiness usually implies that the subject is false in some way whereas verisimilitude can apply to things that are in actuality true or false.  I vote that we use "full of truthy goodness" instead, as in "DF is full of truthy goodness."

[Andeerz]

Verisimilitude is a synonym of truthiness, with the exception that truthiness usually implies that the subject is false in some way whereas verisimilitude can apply to things that are in actuality true or false.  I vote that we use "full of truthy goodness" instead, as in "DF is full of truthy goodness."

I like "veri", but "full of truthy goodness" has such a nice ring to it.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Verisimilitude is a synonym of truthiness, with the exception that truthiness usually implies that the subject is false in some way whereas verisimilitude can apply to things that are in actuality true or false.  I vote that we use "full of truthy goodness" instead, as in "DF is full of truthy goodness."

I like "veri", but "full of truthy goodness" has such a nice ring to it.

Yes it does, but not as a technical term, unfortunately.