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[Medicine Man]

I WANTS AN ELF SKULL BONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edit: Also "Urdim McPothead cancels haul item: Freaking out"

What mannnnnnnn?

What? Can a man not dream of getting high from the skull of the Elf Queen?

That's awesome maaaaa- WOAH DUDE! Look at my hands!

[Urist McMick]

Urdim McPothead cancels haul item: Too baked.

Urdim McPothead"Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude"
Urist McPothead"yeah"

[TheyTarget]

Yeah... I don't think I want Dwarf Fort to descend into a giant stoner commune.

[Urist McMick]

You know, Arutha, sometimes you take all the fun out of life.

[Urist McCheeseMaker]

Here's a thought: some forts do accept certain drugs, while others don't.

Basically, the average of all your dorves' opinions on a drug is used as a slight modifier to an individual dorf's expressed opinion about it, and it also affects how strict any lawmaker's reaction to the drug in question is. A similar modifier would be used for the combined set of all drug-like substances in the fort.

Migrants could shake up things a bit, and laws depend on your population. Also, it lets the player get rid of that stoner or the uptight asshole, and modify it a bit that way.

[harborpirate]

If pipe smoking had similar effects as alcohol does in the game right now, I'd be all for it.

Perhaps some dwarves could "need a smoke to get through the working day" instead of (or possibly in addition to) needing alcohol.

Quarry bush leaves seem the most obvious choice to enable production of smokable pipe filler, since they already exist in the game. Presumably you'd have to take the drying action on them at the farmers workshop or maybe even the wood burning workshop. (Then drying would require 1 unit of wood, which in a way would be nice because it would give a mature, magma and metal driven fort a reason to still use wood.)

As for making smoking pipes out of just about every kind of material, I'm all for that, even if smoking doesn't make it into the game.

[Andeerz]

Maybe, but we don't need to get into illegal drugs, that just seems to far for dwarf fort, we don't need to make a political statement.
I don't see why this would be needed, but I mean, it could exists, as a little thing you can do to make dwarfs happy. Dwarfs buy pipes, and smoke when they are on break or something. Works for me.

First off, what's illegal to Dwarfs in DF should be determined by the raws and a (ideally) procedurally generated code of laws, no? Well, I think that if drugs of any sort are in, so long as they are modeled realistically (as in, with the appropriate side (or intended) effects and uses), then there is no overt political statement and it will enrich the game, in my opinion.  Believe me, there is a reason highly addictive drugs are looked down upon; among other things, it's not the most productive thing in the world to have half a population in an opium induced state of lethargy, or another part of the population tantrum-spiralling because of withdrawals.  But that's all another can of worms.
 

Thumbs down on the idea of illegal drugs though, that would be totally anachronistic.  The earliest mention I've heard of illegal drugs is opium being outlawed in 18th centuring Qing China during the opium wars... at the same time opium and laudanum were entirely legal in Britain, which is part of why the British just thought the Chinese were being whiny legalist anti-free-trade authoritarians.

Love the idea of intoxicant effects for certain smokeables, though... greater focus and stamina from coca leaves (only grows in tropical biomes) or tobacco... a really great one would be opium addiction.  Dwarves become lethargic with increased risk of melancholy from opium, of course.  How about merchants bringing opium and addicted dwarves violating "broker trade only" and giving away all of their personal possessions, possibly stealing from others, to get their next fix?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1034978/pdf/medhist00126-0026.pdf
http://www.gallowglass.org/jadwiga/SCA/hempnettle.html

Think again!  It is quite historical for the technological period we are interested in!    Recreational drug use and addiction are medieval as well as modern phenomena, though perhaps (and that "perhaps" is speculation) not as widespread.  Smoking of stuff, at least in the West during the medieval period was NOT widespread if existant at all.  BUT in the middle east and eastern Europe, smoking may have existed.  The effects of hemp, opium, and other such drugs were in fact known to people as early as Greek times, and hemp and opium were in fact used by apothecaries/medical practitioners as treatments in the Middle East throughout medieval times and by the Greeks much earlier.  Read the first link: it is veeeery interesting. 

Smoking in the modern sense (as in, with a cigarette or a pipe) is a bit iffy as I am not sure if many, if any, pipes remain.  HOWEVER, incense throughout history was burnt, and I don't think it would have escaped many apothecary's/priest/whatever's mind as a possible medium of delivery for therapeutic (or recreational) effects.  This is all still an actively researched area, and as more archaeological crap is uncovered, and certain areas of turmoil calm down and allow access to historical stuff, a more clear picture of life throughout the ages is emerging. 

Take home points about IRL Historical (Medieval and Ancient) Drug Use:
1. Drug use, addiction, recreational and medicinal = YES;  Military = NEED TO LOOK INTO IT
2. Smoking = MAYBE
3. Thriving drug trade = YES
4. Does the historical community know all there is to know? = EMPHATIC NO

ALSO!!!!
This makes me think: incense would be a great thing to have in the game, if anything.  Happy thoughts from good smells and bad thoughts from bad smells would be cool.  Also, think of the ceremonial implications!  And, also... shamans and underground hallucinogenic mushrooms?  But that might be for another thread.

[TheyTarget]

First off,

I didn't want to quote your whole post. I just don't want this game to descend into some stoner fantasy. While I know it would be historically accurate to have things such as this, and even possibly accurate to have certain authorities apposed to the use of drugs. I don't think we need to have it. We live in an age where most of the world understands the gains, and loses associated with drug use, and coming off as supporting one side, by having drug use in the game, just seems wrong. I mean, there is one sex scene, in Mass Effect, and the whole media blow up and announced it as a sex simulator, which is a completely false claim. I just think we should stay around from the issue all together as it could easily be misconstrued. And I'm gonna leave it at that.

[ZebioLizard2]

Could have tabacco standard smoking as well, should you not want to create a stoned stoner paradise.

[Auto Slaughter]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1034978/pdf/medhist00126-0026.pdf
http://www.gallowglass.org/jadwiga/SCA/hempnettle.html

Think again!  It is quite historical for the technological period we are interested in!    Recreational drug use and addiction are medieval as well as modern phenomena, though perhaps (and that "perhaps" is speculation) not as widespread.  Smoking of stuff, at least in the West during the medieval period was NOT widespread if existant at all.  BUT in the middle east and eastern Europe, smoking may have existed.  The effects of hemp, opium, and other such drugs were in fact known to people as early as Greek times, and hemp and opium were in fact used by apothecaries/medical practitioners as treatments in the Middle East throughout medieval times and by the Greeks much earlier.  Read the first link: it is veeeery interesting. 

I didn't read all that stuff because you seem to have completely missed the point of what I said.  I didn't say that drugs would be anachronistic, I said that drugs being illegal would be anachronistic.  (So, uh, think three or four times.)

[Andeerz]

First off,

I didn't want to quote your whole post. I just don't want this game to descend into some stoner fantasy. While I know it would be historically accurate to have things such as this, and even possibly accurate to have certain authorities apposed to the use of drugs. I don't think we need to have it. We live in an age where most of the world understands the gains, and loses associated with drug use, and coming off as supporting one side, by having drug use in the game, just seems wrong. I mean, there is one sex scene, in Mass Effect, and the whole media blow up and announced it as a sex simulator, which is a completely false claim. I just think we should stay around from the issue all together as it could easily be misconstrued. And I'm gonna leave it at that.

Ewps... looks like I ruffled a few feathers here.    I'll stay away from this one with a 10 foot or larger pole so as not to encourage derailing the thread.  I stand by my earlier statement, but totally see where you are coming from.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1034978/pdf/medhist00126-0026.pdf
http://www.gallowglass.org/jadwiga/SCA/hempnettle.html

Think again!  It is quite historical for the technological period we are interested in!    Recreational drug use and addiction are medieval as well as modern phenomena, though perhaps (and that "perhaps" is speculation) not as widespread.  Smoking of stuff, at least in the West during the medieval period was NOT widespread if existant at all.  BUT in the middle east and eastern Europe, smoking may have existed.  The effects of hemp, opium, and other such drugs were in fact known to people as early as Greek times, and hemp and opium were in fact used by apothecaries/medical practitioners as treatments in the Middle East throughout medieval times and by the Greeks much earlier.  Read the first link: it is veeeery interesting. 

I didn't read all that stuff because you seem to have completely missed the point of what I said.  I didn't say that drugs would be anachronistic, I said that drugs being illegal would be anachronistic.  (So, uh, think three or four times.  And maybe read three or four times too.)

Oh!  Well, uh, my bad!  I was just excited to see that drug use and addiction was not just a modern phenomenon.  I had my hunches that it wasn't an issue back then, but I was wrong.  Also, I see what you mean.  I agree, though I have no concrete evidence to back this one up.  Seems like perhaps drugs weren't a big enough deal to merit laws regulating their use. 

But, perhaps in the right situation, like if opium use became a regular occurrence in a fort and productivity suffered for it, there could be a drive to outlaw it.  Perhaps a mechanism should be in place for outlawing (or even subsidizing!) things (not specifically for drugs, but for things in general) other than the random noble preference-related mandates we have now.

I'll read more carefully next time and not get carried away with excitement.

[Mckee]

Look, the idea of recreational drugs is an interesting one and its realistic. With regards to the idea of a media blow out, this game has a community that encourages xenophobia and mass murder of children in game. Think about it, elves are *cough* people too. The game is obscure and has an unusual set of fans, let the media have a tantrum spiral for all I care.

Also, who says drug use will be show in either abeneficial or harmful light, if toady did add this, chances are that it would be balanced and impartial or hilariously unbalanced with insane consequences and results. I'd be happy with just a tobacco equivalent and people could mod in other plants too I suppose. I can hardly image toady turning all this into some pro or anti drug soapbox.

 Beyond that, if there are changes to how society works in DF, then laws around personal habits could turn out a million and one ways, especially if they are generated per society or world. Not to say that some control would go amiss, but yeah, thats a bit of a tangent for now.

[Andeerz]

Yeah!

Also, I hope the thread doesn't derail!  Let's save the moral implications and other mumbo-jumbo for another thread.  Ultimately, it's Toady's call, and he's a very smart dood.

Also, basically reiterating what Mckee said in his last sentence... any effects of anything in the game on social stuff or whatever (like drugs or whatever) should be emergent phenomena that arises from well-defined rules at as basic a level as possible. To a large extent, that's how the game operates; as much crap as possible is procedurally generated from simple sets of rules set at a basic level (think world-gen creating a rather realistic world from a relatively simple set of parameters and a well modeled algorithm that effectively uses these parameters).  That said, if emergent phenomena is going to come out impartial/objective and/or realistic, the previously-mentioned basic well-defined rules should be as close to modeling IRL rules/factors as possible (I think).  Basically, if smoking and drugs and stuff and their effects are modeled reasonably realistically and an ideally realistic (or with a semblance of verisimilitude) model of social interaction and basic psychology are in, then I think we should see an believable, impartial, and self-balanced (without needing arbitrary meta-gamey mechanics) modeling of drug use in a society that would ultimately add another enriching and valuable facet to the game.  The same applies for just about any suggestion...  That to me would be neat.   

EDIT: Also, having those well defined basic rules not modeling IRL rules could lead to a wonderfully interesting, equally cool gameplay experience as well; not realistic, BUT it would display verisimilitude.

[Andeerz]

I said that drugs being illegal would be anachronistic.

Oh!  While reading the first article I linked, I came across this passage:

The Qur'an, since its promulgation in the early seventh century, prohibited the use of wines, which were widely known in pre-and early Islamic Arabia.  But neither hemp nor opium was then known. Of course, no specific prohibition was made against their use in the Qur'an. This left the door open to misuse. Even in the case of prohibited wines, very few among leaders, caliphs and the well-to-do had ever followed the prohibition faithfuly. Under the Fatimid King al-Hakim (reigned 996-1021) and the Ayyubid King Al-Afdal (1197), respectively, however, edicts were issued to prohibit the sale of liquors and to close all taverns and liquor stores through- out Syria and Egypt.

The first known sanction by a government, however, not only against wines but also hashish (cannabis) was enacted and enforced by the courageous King al-Zahir Baybars (1266-79).  He ordered all taverns and brothels closed in his domain. There were several reasons why this took place under Baybars' leadership, but sufice to mention three:(1)his sincere religious and moral convictions and the demoralizing effects of drugs and liquor misuse; (2)he was a warrior who fought many battles on many fields and he noticed the efects of such drugs on the moral and mental capacities of his soldiers whom he wished to keep strong and dependable; (3) the wide spread misuse of drugs.

[Farthing]

Lets not forget about lung injuries caused by smoking. And that the smoke produced will probably make dwarves uncomfortable.