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Author Topic: On Morality In Video Games  (Read 5058 times)

TheDarkJay

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On Morality In Video Games
« on: September 16, 2010, 06:43:38 am »

I'm not going to deny it, I find moral choices in video games fascinating. On the one hand, having options and therefore the illusion of control is very nice. On the other, for fucks sake video games, why is the choice always to be either Jesus, Satan or apathetic?

Our sense of "Morality" is just an avoidance of the negative consequences of actions, a moral system in games needs to be designed to reflect that because games have no real consequences anyway, which is why games have to dangle some form of engineered carrot in front of players to guide their "moral" judgements.

Star Wars: KoToR had simple carrots, dark side powers which hurt enemies and light side which healed and buffed allies. Being light side or dark side was basically a playing style choice. Dark side sometimes had an extra money carrot, but not always. Sometimes you got more from light side.

Mass Effect has two carrots: Being a bastard gives you renegade and lets you do more intimidation, being a paragon let's you be more charismatic. But the carrots are the same both ways, being renegade is just funnier to watch most of the time. I can't be the only player he basically did all the big paragon choices but at every other step of the way was a complete bastard, just so he could laugh at the bastardry.

Both these carrots give players "the weaknesses of amorality", being a grey made you inherently weaker which sucked.

Personally I'd like to see a game implement a morality system akin to that of the World of Darkness: One-way. Being cruel cost you morality, but when only your current morality was above the level of cruelty of that action. A common thief would not lose any more morality from stealing, but if they ever kill someone they'd take a plunge. Also it means the game can easily keep track of how to treat the player, you can't "puppy-poke" your way to becoming the Lord of the Sith.

Of course some kinds of carrots would be required. WoD implements "derangements", as your character goes more (a/im)moral they go insane(r). This means players have to balance the rewards of their "evil" actions with the rewards of such actions.

Such games would also find it easier to gauge NPC reactions to the player. Full morality is a saint who has never took a life (not even in self-defence), middle morality may be a common thief out for himself, no morality a complete psychopathic monster who has definitely murdered their way to that state. It'd be surprisingly easy to track =)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 12:36:16 pm by TheDarkJay »
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Creamcorn

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Re: On Morality In Video Games
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2010, 06:46:20 am »

Why didn't you mention DF's mortality system?
1: Murder random child.
2: Murder random child with parent's head.
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TheDarkJay

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Re: On Morality In Video Games
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2010, 06:48:26 am »

Well DF is basically what happens when people have no carrots and no consequences  :)
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: On Morality In Video Games
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2010, 06:58:13 am »

And it achieves what Peter Molyneux claimed to have achieved with Black & White but didn't: total freedom to set your moral standards
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Soadreqm

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Re: On Morality In Video Games
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2010, 08:03:31 am »

I'm not sure if morality should necessarily carry huge consequences. In most games, you are pretty much a Nietzschean superman, destroying planets in his wake. You are, by default, capable of defeating the final boss. Just who is the game going to summon to judge you?

I think Planescape: Torment was pretty cool. The morality meter didn't matter much; the only people who knew about it were your allies and they were already forced to follow you for various reasons. Some items had alignment restrictions for who could use them, but that was it. The meter was mostly there for keeping track of what kind of character you wanted to play, not judging you.
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Nikov

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Re: On Morality In Video Games
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2010, 08:24:10 am »

When playing Mount and Blade, Warband on the cRPG servers, I am trying to actually practice battlefield chivalry. Nothing keeps track of it, but whistling a warning when you're coming up behind someone or dismounting from my horse to fight peasants hand-to-hand just makes my kills more respectable (and gives me an excuse for the negative K:D. Well that and being shield-heavy infantry).

In other games, I am rather disgusted by the moral choices usually railroaded on me. Deus Ex did a fantastic job of having no really good or evil faction but allowing you to choose simply which faction's viewpoint you wished to support. Black and White was okay as games go, but the amount of bad karma from just one fireball offset an entire half-hour's worth of free food miracles. Not to mention the system can't discern between rightous anger, retaliatory attacks, defending your own people from enemies, or accidentally dropping a boulder. Mount and Blade also does a good job; instead of tracking a writer's perception of morality, you instead recieve feedback from companions for every questionable action and have your 'honor' tracked over time.
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Josephus

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Re: On Morality In Video Games
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2010, 08:31:16 am »

When playing Mount and Blade, Warband on the cRPG servers, I am trying to actually practice battlefield chivalry. Nothing keeps track of it, but whistling a warning when you're coming up behind someone or dismounting from my horse to fight peasants hand-to-hand just makes my kills more respectable (and gives me an excuse for the negative K:D. Well that and being shield-heavy infantry).

What! But everyone knows that true chivalry fights on horseback! To sully your station by fighting on foot... and against peasants, who deserve to be ridden down like the dogs they are? Unthinkable!
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Il Palazzo

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Re: On Morality In Video Games
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2010, 08:33:25 am »

No mention of The Witcher? The only morality system that didn't feel like pulled out of five year old's arse.(most of the time, at least)
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Neonivek

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Re: On Morality In Video Games
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2010, 08:35:59 am »

The most hillarious (or annoying) Morality system would be Dragon Age

Want to test it?

Have Morigan and Sten on your team and attempt to pass through the game without being a jerk (or outright evil)... Though Sten is the worst...
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Muz

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Re: On Morality In Video Games
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2010, 08:40:40 am »

Black and White was okay as games go, but the amount of bad karma from just one fireball offset an entire half-hour's worth of free food miracles. Not to mention the system can't discern between rightous anger, retaliatory attacks, defending your own people from enemies, or accidentally dropping a boulder.

Actually, IMO, the original B&W had a brilliant moral concept system. Free food miracles made your people spoiled and lazy, they weren't always the "good" thing to do. In fact, the nicest thing to do would've just been to play the pacifist.. it was entirely possible to win the game by not using any attacks.

If you were doing righteous anger or retaliatory attacks, chances are that you're not being 100% good and deserve the neutral god reputation. Accidentally dropping a boulder too.. well, like my ethics class explained, part of ethics is making sure people don't accidentally get hurt. If you were that good, you wouldn't "accidentally" be dropping boulders near villagers or buildings, you'd toss them a bit far.

B&W2 and all of the Molyneux games after decided to use morality as a toy and just ruined it, IMO.
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Nikov

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Re: On Morality In Video Games
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2010, 08:47:24 am »

When playing Mount and Blade, Warband on the cRPG servers, I am trying to actually practice battlefield chivalry. Nothing keeps track of it, but whistling a warning when you're coming up behind someone or dismounting from my horse to fight peasants hand-to-hand just makes my kills more respectable (and gives me an excuse for the negative K:D. Well that and being shield-heavy infantry).

What! But everyone knows that true chivalry fights on horseback! To sully your station by fighting on foot... and against peasants, who deserve to be ridden down like the dogs they are? Unthinkable!

When you ride into the enemy's spawn and the one AFK peasant who was buying himself a pitchfork in the browser-based shop is all that's left, you hop off the horse and give him a sporting chance.

After all, never use a weapon against an enemy who is unequal to the attack.

Also your ethics class might say that, but I'm god and get to decide right and wrong.
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Ephemeriis

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Re: On Morality In Video Games
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2010, 09:06:38 am »

Generally speaking, "moral" choices in video games are a joke.  It's usually painfully obvious what is the "good" choice and what is the "evil" choice...  And they're generally both caricatures.

One of the things I enjoyed about Dragon Age is that it really muddied the waters.  It wasn't really clear which was the good choice and which was the evil choice...  Nor was it entirely clear whether it mattered if you were good or evil.  All that was really important was that you stop the Archdemon.
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Neonivek

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Re: On Morality In Video Games
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2010, 09:09:24 am »

Generally speaking, "moral" choices in video games are a joke.  It's usually painfully obvious what is the "good" choice and what is the "evil" choice...  And they're generally both caricatures.

One of the things I enjoyed about Dragon Age is that it really muddied the waters.  It wasn't really clear which was the good choice and which was the evil choice...  Nor was it entirely clear whether it mattered if you were good or evil.  All that was really important was that you stop the Archdemon.

Then there is Sten...
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Armok

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Re: On Morality In Video Games
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2010, 09:10:13 am »

One model that might work better than most of the ones mentioned here and at least be a BIT more realistic:
Morality meter dosn't affect anything except that it's the win condition/determines if you get the good or the bad ending, and going for the most power tends to be evil, not through some inherent property of it, but simply because there are many more possible wrong things to do than right things.
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Bauglir

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Re: On Morality In Video Games
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2010, 09:34:15 am »

-snip-
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 11:21:25 pm by Bauglir »
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