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[Nigma]

I have looked around and there isn't anything mentioned about this, so why not make this thread myself.

This could either be a suggestion or a simple question being answered depending on the answers this thread gives.

The embark points, what are they still there for?
We can set it between 1 and 10000 on world gen now so there is really no challenge left except for what you make of it yourself.
I personally always gen a world with 10000 points and just pick my items according to how difficult i want it at the time, i can waste 8000 points or 800 points without having to re-gen a world.

So is it used by the world gen? or something else that makes it useful?
If not it might be good to just remove it, have players able to pick items depending on the total weight allowed on their caravan or just plain unlimited...

[TheyTarget]

I never change from the standard embark points. It would feel weird just being able to take anything.

[Aramco]

Once I played as elves, and could bring along "        meat", and "         [insert bone craft here]" (with the spaces)with me for 0 points. It crashed the game, though.

[Jake]

I think the option's there so that new players can make life slightly easier on themselves. A way to change it in-game would be nice, though, as would some choice about how many dwarves to take.

[Nigma]

Well in order to keep it simple for new players there could just be more presets.

And if there are gonna be changes to allow more or less than 7 dwarfs they can change the skill allocation points as well so it would be different from item points.
Since trade wagons (even though they don't work right now) are limited by their carrying capacity why shouldn't our embark wagon.

I still don't see the point of the embark points atm.

[Jake]

Separate allocations for skill and item points make sense, and I see your point about taking it out of worldgen options (perhaps one of the init files?). But a weight-allocation isn't much more realistic without taking into account volume as well, and that strikes me as making things needlessly complicated.

[Nigma]

total points allowed in the init would indeed be a good idea!

I just mentioned weight limits to also give instead of just take with my idea`s.

I still dont see the use of a point system at all since we can make custom workshops and reactions.
Lets put it this way, give me a reason to limit my embark points (which forces me to gen a new world if i want it changed) when i could just as well just not bring 500 booze to begin with.
As mentioned, for the new players there could just be presets and players should still be able to make presets that you can then share an just tweak each time you embark without having to worry if you have the points.

[Ultimoos]

I think it all should go in a way that dwarfs should be able to embark having absolutely nothing. To embark on a temperate woodland with lots of vegetation we dont need anything exept picks, axe and anvil. All the food we can gather right away and make quickly some booze. So no need to bring any food and drinks. We could eliminate anvil if the mechanics of making one were more realistic. you dont make anvils using hammer and other anvil. All you need is a form and liquid metal. you pour liquid iron/steel in to the ceramic/stone form and wait for it to cool of. And you have the anvil. Any smelter should be able to make one since they make metal bars which takes the exact same process.
I heard its possible in the 2010 to chop down trees using wooden training axe. Well no need to brink the metal version, you just need to decompose your cart and make one axe. So we are left with picks. I'm pretty shure that ancient peaople were able to extract metal before they made picks out of it. So there should be away to it in DF.
The point is to make it possible to start everything having nothing and not using trade. 

[Virex]

We could eliminate anvil if the mechanics of making one were more realistic. you dont make anvils using hammer and other anvil. All you need is a form and liquid metal. you pour liquid iron/steel in to the ceramic/stone form and wait for it to cool of. And you have the anvil. Any smelter should be able to make one since they make metal bars which takes the exact same process. 

I think I'd sand-cast the anvil. Less need to muck around with moulds that way, though that means you'd need to have access to some sort of sand, since peat is probably going to muck your form up.

[Jake]

Another idea occurs to me. Embark points could represent the amount of cash you have available to equip your expedition, and thus be random within a player-definable range, with your equipment subject to variations in prices between civilisations that change randomly each time you embark. The amount could also vary according to the difficulty presented by the biome, with a percentage bonus for evil biomes, harsh climates or the presence of features like an aquifier.

[Nigma]

Hmm so in short you want it back to the way it was in 40d but make the actual points randomized by factors like biome and your civ.

That would make embark points more useful but that kind of sounds a lot harder to do then to just remove the system.
That said i do agree that just being able to define the embark points in the init files is probably the best solution.

Now back to the original question since everyone is providing ideas of how to improve it but i still wonder if it is as useless as i claim it is.
No one has provided any valid point proving embark points are used in any other way then to.. limit your embark with your little group.
Does it have effect on starting groups in world gen or other game mechanics?

To me embark points are like the appendix of Dwarf Fortress now but maybe its more like, some other organ..

[Aramco]

While you can make it however difficult on yourself you want with point limits, they are still useful to keep you aware of how much you are taking, and whether you are getting ridiculous or not. So, maybe just a counter that tells you how many points you have spent, but does not actually stop you from bringing more.

[3]

I like Jake's idea. The way things are set up currently doesn't make any sense anyway (why should embark points have anything whatsoever to do with worldgen?).

As for effects on non-player groups during worldgen, there's nothing in that regard that I know of. The apparent removal of the (entity-level) initial site population perameter in 31.13 makes it look even less likely.

[Scynix]

Games have rules to present a challenge, pace, path. Just because you CAN type in iddqd in DOOM, doesn't mean you do.
Just because you CAN change the point value to 202840783284073275432, doesn't mean you do. It's an option. Why would you remove options? That boggles my mind.

[Nigma]

Games have rules to present a challenge, pace, path. Just because you CAN type in iddqd in DOOM, doesn't mean you do.
Just because you CAN change the point value to 202840783284073275432, doesn't mean you do. It's an option. Why would you remove options? That boggles my mind.

Yes but if you CAN bring 202840783284073275432 barrels of booze doesn't mean you will... Same logic on the other side of the discussion...
Without embark points people can make challenges for themselves just as easy.
Options are pretty much a choice between a set amount of rules, and rules restrict gameplay. I see no way it could reduce the gameplay value of the game if embark points are removed.
The way you say this though make it sounds like you are convinced the game would break if embark points are removed.
I am pretty interested in your side. I understand that what i am saying in your eyes is that "if you can have godmode, why not have it on at all times?".
I suppose that is one way of looking at it, however i would be insulted by someone that assumes i cant turn off "godmode" on my own and need it to be off at all times.

I totally lost my train of thought here but yea..
Still no real use to having embark points the way they currently are compared to setting it in the init files or removing it and using presets.