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[Zathras]

All major rule infractions are modkillable or it's being replaced, so... redundant.

Hmmm... I agree on the redundancy. If people miss two prods, they should be dinged in their rating and the game proceed without them -- that much I think is clear. But I believe it's better to modkill them than to replace them, as experience has shown that finding replacements is not easy, and can stall or distort games (at least nowadays), while the modkill will both a) train players not to do it; and b) allow the game to proceed normally without uncertainties and a helpful roleflip. A modkill threat would encourage scumteams not to let their teammates lurk, whereas a replacement works in their favour, as a replacer starts with a clean record and no suspicions against them.  I also like the notion of it being a 'per game day' thing rather than 'per game overall' thing.

But it could be left to the judgement of the mod.

Technically, breadbocks never cheated. Sure, he was a jerk, but he never cheated. So, no. breadbocks isn't given an instant F. He's just going to be looked down on by people.

I disagree. He attempted to cheat and was caught in the attempt. He did intentionally cheat, he just didn't get away with it. If only successful cheaters are punished, the wrong message is sent.

Don't worry. I also missed a bit. However, I was focused more on trying not to lynch the Townies.

Curious: were you onto me? Or Pandar? :-)

[Pandarsenic]

breadbocks did something that was pretty clearly an attempt at cheating.

[webadict]

breadbocks did something that was pretty clearly an attempt at cheating.

I'm gonna go with the Air Bud defense and say that nothing in the rules said he couldn't do it.

All major rule infractions are modkillable or it's being replaced, so... redundant.

Hmmm... I agree on the redundancy. If people miss two prods, they should be dinged in their rating and the game proceed without them -- that much I think is clear. But I believe it's better to modkill them than to replace them, as experience has shown that finding replacements is not easy, and can stall or distort games (at least nowadays), while the modkill will both a) train players not to do it; and b) allow the game to proceed normally without uncertainties and a helpful roleflip. A modkill threat would encourage scumteams not to let their teammates lurk, whereas a replacement works in their favour, as a replacer starts with a clean record and no suspicions against them.  I also like the notion of it being a 'per game day' thing rather than 'per game overall' thing.

But it could be left to the judgement of the mod.

Technically, breadbocks never cheated. Sure, he was a jerk, but he never cheated. So, no. breadbocks isn't given an instant F. He's just going to be looked down on by people.

I disagree. He attempted to cheat and was caught in the attempt. He did intentionally cheat, he just didn't get away with it. If only successful cheaters are punished, the wrong message is sent.

I'll go on statistical evidence and general psychological principles that state that scum are less likely to lurk than townies. Generally, if a replacement can be found, they should be found. Modkilling is a last resort sort of tool for lurking.

And, breadbocks didn't cheat. You can pout and whine about what he did, but he didn't break a single rule. Not only that, but his attempt at choosing a second target was denied, as it should have been.

The equivalent of this is me being a Cop and declaring a different investigation. The next Day. It's just stupid.

Don't worry. I also missed a bit. However, I was focused more on trying not to lynch the Townies.

Curious: were you onto me? Or Pandar? :-)

Were you Lonewolf? Because I was against Lonewolf, Pandarsenic, and Jokerman for being ridiculously lurky.

[Zathras]

breadbocks did something that was pretty clearly an attempt at cheating.

I'm gonna go with the Air Bud defense and say that nothing in the rules said he couldn't do it.
[...]
And, breadbocks didn't cheat. You can pout and whine about what he did, but he didn't break a single rule. Not only that, but his attempt at choosing a second target was denied, as it should have been.

The equivalent of this is me being a Cop and declaring a different investigation. The next Day. It's just stupid.

Bullshit. This is like you voting Pundarsonic, and after Pandar is lynched and flips town, saying that it's a mislynch because you misspelled his name. Not the same at all as declaring whatever you want as cop. There are no rules about misspellings either, or guidelines about how many typos are allowed before the vote is not valid.

If you want to be technical, "he didn't break a single rule" because the rule "don't cheat" wasn't explicitly stated. It seldom is, though it perhaps should be. This doesn't make him any less of a cheater. In any case, I (and others, I'm sure) will refuse to play with him again, and I think the objective of the ranking board is explicitly to identify, track, and discourage this kind of behaviour.

At the end of the day, rulings like these must be achieved through consensus. I don't think we have or will elect a single voice of arbitration to decide in ambiguous cases, like that wasn't the case in the Dak days.

I'll go on statistical evidence and general psychological principles that state that scum are less likely to lurk than townies. Generally, if a replacement can be found, they should be found. Modkilling is a last resort sort of tool for lurking.

I call [citation needed] on those statistics. But whether replacement is preferable to modkilling is, I suppose, a matter of preference. I favour modkilling, and in recent times, I believe games would have progressed better with them (this and BYOR5 being but two examples). Mods will use their judgement and implement what rules they choose, but I present this as a valid alternative that should be given thought if we are to train the playerbase to be less lurky.  (Maybe I assume too much; is less lurkiness something we want to encourage?)

Don't worry. I also missed a bit. However, I was focused more on trying not to lynch the Townies.

Curious: were you onto me? Or Pandar? :-)

Were you Lonewolf? Because I was against Lonewolf, Pandarsenic, and Jokerman for being ridiculously lurky.

Yes, I was, although the question was rather about my play after I joined. Also, your suspecting them as scum for lurking is contrary to your previous statistical assessment.

[Elegy]

Make a new thread for this garbage. Fuck.

[Zathras]

Make a new thread for this garbage. Fuck.

Nobody is forcing you to read. If you're not interested, fuck off.

We do what we want.

[Elegy]

For someone who would spend hours of their own time writing about how some guy may or may not have cheated in a game of forum mafia, you seem pretty oblivious to the fact that this thread isn't about that fucking issue.

So don't tell me to fuck off when you're in the wrong, you stupid cunt.

[Zathras]

So don't tell me to fuck off when you're in the wrong, you stupid cunt.

Fuck off.

[Elegy]

Well whatever, the more important and badass someone acts on the internet, the more pathetic and worthless they are in real life.

Enjoy posting off topic in this thread, Zathras, you definately earned it, you big tough guy, you.

_{S-rank shithead}

[Zai]

Heeey. Let's all calm down here! No need to tell somebody to fuck off, call somebody a cunt, or be offensive about wanting people to move discussion to another thread.

I mean really. The game's over guys. There's no excuse to be offensive.

[PPE:] Alright, seriously. Calm down.

[ToonyMan]

Stop being a nuisance Elegy, ever since you've had that new avatar you've been an asshole.

[JanusTwoface]

Pre-post edit: Wrote this before Elegy but forgot to post it.  Going to go ahead and post it anyways.


I think you're blowing this way out of proportion with breadbocks.

It's entirely possible that he thought he found a loophole and was trying to use it.  Power to him.  It's not like people weren't gloating about winning before the game was actually over or anything...

And when Ottofar did come in later and ended the game (with almost definitely the correct vengeance kill), it's not like breakbocks complained about it.  Granted, he didn't post at all, but for all we know he would have been good about it.

So really, just lay off about it.  I doubt he thought that what he was doing was cheating, ergo he wasn't setting off trying to cheat the system.


Heck, what if things had gone onto the next day?

There's nothing at all in the game or in any sort of established behaviors that would have compelled Pandarsenic to follow this:

* If he flips town, Ottofar, Pandarsenic has agreed to vote Pandarsenic (only in that case, and it's his vote, not mine)

For one: he never even said that he would self-vote.  You did.  All he did was vote breadbocks.  Even if he had, why in the world would he do it?  Doesn't make sense.

Would you have complained about it when he wasn't forced to vote himself?

[Zathras]

Since you guys are here, opinions are welcome regarding the cheating question and the modkill vs. replace question. And yes, these will be moved to their own thread when Webby or Eduren open a formal thread to discuss. In the mean time, this is as good a place as any, and we're already here, so carry on.

[Elegy]

Stop being a nuisance Elegy, ever since you've had that new avatar you've been an asshole.

Oh well fuck me for trying to get you guys to make your own thread.

You don't need Webadict or Eduren to make a thread, you can go do it on your own. It's not that hard, honest, I have total faith you can press the "new topic" button all by yourself!

[ToonyMan]

You don't have to get so angry Elegy.