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[Zathras]

Yeah! Discussion! Good! Jokerman, get in here too, scum!

Sir Bayer: You had a hand in lynching Vector D1 & Tack D2. Only the fact that you voted ToonyMan D4 makes me less than 100% sure you are scum, but I suspect it was at his request over scumchat, as the game was dying and he wanted out, and it would be a great screen for you. It would take a more cunning play than I've seen you do elsewhere, but the low activity and Toony's help may have masked it. You also defended ToonyMan quite vigorously: [1], [2], [3], at least. You are very likely scum.

Oh, Christ, did you really just use those arguments? Did you seriously just drop that much WIFOM? Is that your only argument?
And are you ignoring the fact that I did so to attack Vector? Her angle on him seemed mighty suspicious, which you seem to have conveniently skipped over.

Well, it clearly wasn't my only argument, as there are two arguments in that paragraph, and another one that you quote and respond further down, but let's take them one at a time.

a) You did defend Toony. This is indisputable.

b) You did do it to attack Vector. Attacking the attacker of someone else is called "Chainsaw defence", and it's a very condemning scumtell when the person you were defending turns out to be scum. See: "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum"; "trustworthy once the player defended has been revealed to be group scum". You attacked a townie to defend a scum, scum!

That you did this is indisputable, by your own admission. Whether that makes you scum for sure or not, is for the voters and your deathflip to decide.

c) About the WIFOM; no, it would be genuine WIFOM if I was voting you for it, but I recognise that it's pure speculation, and it's the main reason I'm not (yet) voting you: If you hadn't voted for ToonyMan, the reasons above would be enough for me to declare you 100% scum and vote you outright. But you did hang him. So I present a possible speculation that could reconcile both hypotheses, but I'm not voting you for it nor forcing anyone else to take it. It ain't WIFOM if I don't force it "in front of you". It's speculation; take it or leave it.

But I must say, I hadn't noticed just how much of that Toony defence was indeed a chainsaw defence of a scum. It looks more damning than I originally thought, and I'm more inclined to vote you now. I will, however, hear first what Jokerman, my current target, has to say about my findings so far.

It's also the best time for the scum left, so close to victory, to be the most interested in starting it again, yes, Sir Bayer? I commend your attitude and readiness to resume, but now that I've reread, I can't help but feel there was an ulterior motive as well.

Is this your only other argument? That I want the game to keep rolling because I'm scum and I want to just finish it?
Why not just let the lurkers lurk and wait for the day to end without any lynch? Then I just automatically win! Hey, but no, let's assume Bayer's stupid, that's what everyone else does!

Chill man! But no, I'm not assuming you are stupid, and I do applaud your readiness to resume, as I said. I like enthusiasm in my Mafia games, and you bring a lot of chutzpah to the table. Unfortunately, that is also compatible, in this case, with a scum eagerly returning to a nearly won game hanging on the balance. The possible ulterior motive is right there, and it adds up to the previous points.

But I would have the same opinion of your scummitude if you had just barely dragged your ass in, as Joker did once but not again. Both are compatible with being scum, just one is more akin to eager scum, the other with lazy scum. The enthusiasm is not a scum tell in itself, it's rather a personality quirk that just happens to match very well the previously laid down hypothesis.

I picked Zai and Pandarsenic I think.

The most annoying thing about this is that he could 100% have been telling the truth and there's very little way to verify it.

What are you guys on? Didn't Zai die and flip town? WTF Sir Bayer & Org?

So Org does something stupid, and you immediately associate it with me, despite the fact I never said anything? Get your head on straight and don't let your presupposed scumteam cover your vision.

You never said anything? Didn't you say that there was no way to verify whether ToonyMan had chosen Zai and Pandar as scumbuddies? How about Zai flipping town, would that not be a way to verify it? You fail reading on your own posts, dude.

Also, Pandar: why do you suspect Org? Can you give some substance to your allegations?


[PPE]: Eduren: When did Sir Bayer vote himself?

[Pandarsenic]

Org, what do you expect to accomplish by acting like this? >:[

Well, hey. Way to back up your scumbuddy without voting him.

Oh hey Org was meant to be red. Mah bad. I was too caught up in face-choosing <_<

I suspect Org because

Its Sir Bayer and Zai.

Followed by

Discussing whether Bayer is Toony's scumbuddeh or not is just WIFOM so I'm not going down that road. Therefore, most suspicious presently of Org (voting townies, doing nothing else). Not voteworthy since he was at least present I would contend.

Whereupon

Man, I forgot Zai was dead. Stupid stupid Bayer

And now he's being dense and refusing to do, well, anything.

[Eduren]

Votecount

Org -2- SirBayer, Pandarsenic,
Pandarsenic -- 
Jokerman-EXE -1- Zathras,
Zathras --
SirBayer -1- Org,

Not Voting: Jokerman-EXE,

[SirBayer]

If that's not a bus then my hat is a bus.

And I don't wear a hat.
I wear a bus.

Yeah! Discussion! Good! Jokerman, get in here too, scum!

Game isn't dead yet!

Sir Bayer: You had a hand in lynching Vector D1 & Tack D2. Only the fact that you voted ToonyMan D4 makes me less than 100% sure you are scum, but I suspect it was at his request over scumchat, as the game was dying and he wanted out, and it would be a great screen for you. It would take a more cunning play than I've seen you do elsewhere, but the low activity and Toony's help may have masked it. You also defended ToonyMan quite vigorously: [1], [2], [3], at least. You are very likely scum.

Oh, Christ, did you really just use those arguments? Did you seriously just drop that much WIFOM? Is that your only argument?
And are you ignoring the fact that I did so to attack Vector? Her angle on him seemed mighty suspicious, which you seem to have conveniently skipped over.

Well, it clearly wasn't my only argument, as there are two arguments in that paragraph, and another one that you quote and respond further down, but let's take them one at a time.

a) You did defend Toony. This is indisputable.

I defended him. It was ill-advised, but I saw nothing scummy about him, and so I stuck up for him. I was under the impression town tended to do things like that.

b) You did do it to attack Vector. Attacking the attacker of someone else is called "Chainsaw defence", and it's a very condemning scumtell when the person you were defending turns out to be scum. See: "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum"; "trustworthy once the player defended has been revealed to be group scum". You attacked a townie to defend a scum, scum!

That you did this is indisputable, by your own admission. Whether that makes you scum for sure or not, is for the voters and your deathflip to decide.

So you're condemning me to lynch already? You just want me dead? Seriously?

And eh. I didn't know. You'll notice that I was very well separated from Toony long before I started the lynch. That wasn't an out-of-the-blue maneuver, it happened over time.

c) About the WIFOM; no, it would be genuine WIFOM if I was voting you for it, but I recognise that it's pure speculation, and it's the main reason I'm not (yet) voting you: If you hadn't voted for ToonyMan, the reasons above would be enough for me to declare you 100% scum and vote you outright. But you did hang him. So I present a possible speculation that could reconcile both hypotheses, but I'm not voting you for it nor forcing anyone else to take it. It ain't WIFOM if I don't force it "in front of you". It's speculation; take it or leave it.

I accept that you're not voting me, but that doesn't stop the fact it's WIFOM. Voting on account of WIFOM is more suspicious than just spreading WIFOM, but putting it out in the first place is what has me worried about you.

As for the defense that it's only WIFOM if it's forced on us, not true; WIFOM is a tool widely used to plant the seed of doubt.

But I must say, I hadn't noticed just how much of that Toony defence was indeed a chainsaw defence of a scum. It looks more damning than I originally thought, and I'm more inclined to vote you now. I will, however, hear first what Jokerman, my current target, has to say about my findings so far.

Err.

So you're just gonna... turn on your heel about that whole thing? Well, you go for Joe first.

It's also the best time for the scum left, so close to victory, to be the most interested in starting it again, yes, Sir Bayer? I commend your attitude and readiness to resume, but now that I've reread, I can't help but feel there was an ulterior motive as well.

Is this your only other argument? That I want the game to keep rolling because I'm scum and I want to just finish it?
Why not just let the lurkers lurk and wait for the day to end without any lynch? Then I just automatically win! Hey, but no, let's assume Bayer's stupid, that's what everyone else does!

Chill man! But no, I'm not assuming you are stupid, and I do applaud your readiness to resume, as I said. I like enthusiasm in my Mafia games, and you bring a lot of chutzpah to the table. Unfortunately, that is also compatible, in this case, with a scum eagerly returning to a nearly won game hanging on the balance. The possible ulterior motive is right there, and it adds up to the previous points.

But I would have the same opinion of your scummitude if you had just barely dragged your ass in, as Joker did once but not again. Both are compatible with being scum, just one is more akin to eager scum, the other with lazy scum. The enthusiasm is not a scum tell in itself, it's rather a personality quirk that just happens to match very well the previously laid down hypothesis.

I'm not quite clear on whether this is a point that requires retort, so I'm just... I'll let you have it.

I picked Zai and Pandarsenic I think.

The most annoying thing about this is that he could 100% have been telling the truth and there's very little way to verify it.

What are you guys on? Didn't Zai die and flip town? WTF Sir Bayer & Org?

So Org does something stupid, and you immediately associate it with me, despite the fact I never said anything? Get your head on straight and don't let your presupposed scumteam cover your vision.

You never said anything? Didn't you say that there was no way to verify whether ToonyMan had chosen Zai and Pandar as scumbuddies? How about Zai flipping town, would that not be a way to verify it? You fail reading on your own posts, dude.

Also, Pandar: why do you suspect Org? Can you give some substance to your allegations?


[PPE]: Eduren: When did Sir Bayer vote himself?

Yeah, I noticed that in retrospect.

He wasn't the Godfather, was he? He was an underling. Someone chose him. We should... actually probably roll back and check on that, but there's no time in my schedule to do that.

[Zathras]

a) You did defend Toony. This is indisputable.

I defended him. It was ill-advised, but I saw nothing scummy about him, and so I stuck up for him. I was under the impression town tended to do things like that.

b) You did do it to attack Vector. Attacking the attacker of someone else is called "Chainsaw defence", and it's a very condemning scumtell when the person you were defending turns out to be scum. See: "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum"; "trustworthy once the player defended has been revealed to be group scum". You attacked a townie to defend a scum, scum!
That you did this is indisputable, by your own admission. Whether that makes you scum for sure or not, is for the voters and your deathflip to decide.

So you're condemning me to lynch already? You just want me dead? Seriously?

Whether you are condemned or not will be decided in the fullness of time by a jury of your peers. But, leaving all other points aside, the case against you is this: you repeatedly, through time and with intent, defended ToonyMan, and in the process of so doing directly led and accomplished a lynch of a townie (Vector). You buddied scum, you defended scum, you chainsaw-defended scum, and you killed town twice (Vector & Tack). How many hats did you eat earlier in the game? (or were they buses?)

I am increasingly convinced of your scummitude, scum. It's a toss up between you and Joker for my vote now, but it stays on him because he said he'd play and yet he isn't here yet, although he has been active on other threads. He should know better. More on this below.

[About ToonyMan] He wasn't the Godfather, was he? He was an underling. Someone chose him. We should... actually probably roll back and check on that, but there's no time in my schedule to do that.

You know, it was on my post last night, first on the previous page (with standard settings):

To help your lazy asses back into the game, here's a quick summary of who was voting who at the end of each day. A couple of thoughts on those still alive and the game, at the bottom.
[...]Day 4
ToonyMan has been lynched! ToonyMan was a Mafia Underling

Why do I bother?

But I must say, I hadn't noticed just how much of that Toony defence was indeed a chainsaw defence of a scum. It looks more damning than I originally thought, and I'm more inclined to vote you now. I will, however, hear first what Jokerman, my current target, has to say about my findings so far.

So you're just gonna... turn on your heel about that whole thing? Well, you go for Joe first.

I am on Joe, and have been since I joined the game. There is no heel turning. I'm just using the time while he shows up to point out your scummitude. It's not like he's the only scum out there.

But yeah, back on Jokerman-EXE.

Jokerman! You need to get your ass in here and participate. This game almost died due to lurkiness, and now that everyone else is back, you are not getting away with it anymore. If you don't show, you are scum, trying to let the day lapse; maybe we lynch town and you win, maybe we nolynch and you NK and win. Well, fuck no. I hereby issue to you the same ultimatum I put to Pandar yesterday:

I propose that you show the fuck up, in less than 24 hours (say 11:30PM Monday, forum time), or I will fix my vote to you and insist others do the same. This way, if you don't show up, you're losing the game for your faction (100% sure if you are town, or just very likely if you are scum). So, do you want to be a loser, punk?

The time for lurking is over. Show up or hang, scum. The charges on you to defend are as follows:

You are guilty of hard-core lurking even when the game was at its peak. You "forgot you were alive" at least TWICE, for crying out loud. I say as screen for lurking and night killing. You also had several scummy moves D1&2, that Web called you on, and you were fingered by him as scum several times, convincingly. He showed up dead the immediately next morning. Then back to lurking and getting away with it. You only seem to remember you are alive when it's time to night kill. You are the scummiest.

Now get here and play, goddamnit!

[Zathras]

Eduren: Please prod Jokerman-EXE again, as it has been 48hrs since his last (oh so very useful) post:

Yeah, I'm still playing. Not much to say though.

No shit.

[webadict]

Eduren: Please prod Jokerman-EXE again, as it has been 48hrs since his last (oh so very useful) post:

^{Which was after how many more hours of lurking?}

[Jokerman-EXE]

Zathras: What do you want from me? My feelings on your findings? That's a pretty stupid trap; if I agree at all, you'll take it as a sign of buddying and use it to condemn me. If I disagree, you'll say I'm scum defending a buddy...and use it to condemn me.

If you think Toony is scum, why are you voting me? Yes, I was lurking because yes, I do have a life that yes, does get in the way sometimes. Do you really think placing your vote on me - for lurking - is a good idea? Especially at this stage of the game?

Explain that to me.

[SirBayer]

Zathras: What do you want from me? My feelings on your findings? That's a pretty stupid trap; if I agree at all, you'll take it as a sign of buddying and use it to condemn me. If I disagree, you'll say I'm scum defending a buddy...and use it to condemn me.

If you think Toony is scum, why are you voting me? Yes, I was lurking because yes, I do have a life that yes, does get in the way sometimes. Do you really think placing your vote on me - for lurking - is a good idea? Especially at this stage of the game?

Explain that to me.

Woah, hey, Joe, guess what, Toony's dead and he flipped scum. So, uh.

Uh.

Unvote Org, vote Jokerman. I think there's no other possible course of action.

[Jokerman-EXE]

Zathras: What do you want from me? My feelings on your findings? That's a pretty stupid trap; if I agree at all, you'll take it as a sign of buddying and use it to condemn me. If I disagree, you'll say I'm scum defending a buddy...and use it to condemn me.

If you think Toony is scum, why are you voting me? Yes, I was lurking because yes, I do have a life that yes, does get in the way sometimes. Do you really think placing your vote on me - for lurking - is a good idea? Especially at this stage of the game?

Explain that to me.

Woah, hey, Joe, guess what, Toony's dead and he flipped scum. So, uh.

Uh.

Unvote Org, vote Jokerman. I think there's no other possible course of action.

SirBayer is the scum.

Do you honestly think I would have missed that if I were scum, dude? Because I find it more likely that its because I didn't read through the 30 pages I missed as a fucking townie.

Someone lynch this scumbucket.

[Zathras]

What a pathetic load of crap that was.

Zathras: What do you want from me? [...] If you think Toony is scum, why are you voting me?

What do I want from you? How about you play the fucking game you'd said you'd play? Hell, I'm not asking you to even reread it, just, you know, maybe, read the fucking post you are replying to? It did happen to include the line "ToonyMan has been lynched! ToonyMan was a Mafia Underling", you know?

Do you honestly think I would have missed that if I were scum, dude?

"But why would a scum do that?!" is the textbook example of WIFOM, dude.

Because I find it more likely that its because I didn't read through the 30 pages I missed as a fucking townie.
 Yes, I was lurking because yes, I do have a life that yes, does get in the way sometimes. Do you really think placing your vote on me - for lurking - is a good idea? Especially at this stage of the game?
Explain that to me.

Don't read the 30 pages if you don't want. How about you read the new posts since you last posted? It's a reasonable request, yes? It's sorta the definition of participation and playing the game, yes? There's been enough recent activity to a) read through easily, and b) have an opinion on. But noooo. You have a life. Fuck you. We all do.


What do I want from you? This is what I want from you: PLAY TO WIN. The game is on its last day or two. Place your vote with a reason, and with the intention of doing something useful for town (if you are town) or for scum (if you are scum). Give a shit. Get involved. Play the fucking game. That's what I want from you.

[Jokerman-EXE]

What a pathetic load of crap that was.

Zathras: What do you want from me? [...] If you think Toony is scum, why are you voting me?

What do I want from you? How about you play the fucking game you'd said you'd play? Hell, I'm not asking you to even reread it, just, you know, maybe, read the fucking post you are replying to? It did happen to include the line "ToonyMan has been lynched! ToonyMan was a Mafia Underling", you know?

Do you honestly think I would have missed that if I were scum, dude?

"But why would a scum do that?!" is the textbook example of WIFOM, dude.

Because I find it more likely that its because I didn't read through the 30 pages I missed as a fucking townie.
 Yes, I was lurking because yes, I do have a life that yes, does get in the way sometimes. Do you really think placing your vote on me - for lurking - is a good idea? Especially at this stage of the game?
Explain that to me.

Don't read the 30 pages if you don't want. How about you read the new posts since you last posted? It's a reasonable request, yes? It's sorta the definition of participation and playing the game, yes? There's been enough recent activity to a) read through easily, and b) have an opinion on. But noooo. You have a life. Fuck you. We all do.


What do I want from you? This is what I want from you: PLAY TO WIN. The game is on its last day or two. Place your vote with a reason, and with the intention of doing something useful for town (if you are town) or for scum (if you are scum). Give a shit. Get involved. Play the fucking game. That's what I want from you.

Well, your pointless raging aside, you've almost managed to avoid my question.

You're voting me for more than just lurking, right? You've made the pretty clear. But y'know what really blows? When people scream at you to play the game, you attempt it, and then you catch a ton of shit for not doing it the way they wanted. Golly, it's almost like that's what causes me to not want to play.

Fuck off, this shit is stupid. There's no way I can convince you that I'm not scum because I'm willing to bet that you are, and I'm not able to make a good case of it. So if you're scum, congrats. If not, then fuck you because we're going to lose. Yeah, probably my fault, so just skip over that whole part where you get on your goddam high horse about how it's not your fault.

[Zathras]

Well, your pointless raging aside, you've almost managed to avoid my question.
You're voting me for more than just lurking, right? You've made the pretty clear. But y'know what really blows? When people scream at you to play the game, you attempt it, and then you catch a ton of shit for not doing it the way they wanted. Golly, it's almost like that's what causes me to not want to play.

Hey man, if you had actually attempted it, I would have held back the rage. But missing who's alive or dead, and failing to read the post you're replying to, let alone the all of a page and a half of new posts since your last, isn't "attempting it". It's a half assed poke with a stick.

But you're right. If you do play it, I'll hold back the rage. I didn't explode at SB, Pandar or Org... because they started playing.

Fuck off, this shit is stupid. There's no way I can convince you that I'm not scum because I'm willing to bet that you are, and I'm not able to make a good case of it. So if you're scum, congrats. If not, then fuck you because we're going to lose.

If you think I'm scum, vote me! I sympathise with the feeling that making a case against a recent replacement is hard, but I've done my best to participate and talk enough to let people see me and putting my cards on the table. In any case, there's two scum out there. Who's your guess for the other one and why? Maybe vote them.

I think I've explained at least twice (in my first post, and the one to which you replied earlier) why I'm voting you in addition to the lurking. You still haven't answered those charges, and my vote on you stays until you do. If I've left any other question unanswered, please point me to it. I'd like to also hear your opinions on Pandar, Org, and SirBayer.
 

[Pandarsenic]

Org + Jokerman 4 lyfe?

[SirBayer]

SirBayer is the scum.

Do you honestly think I would have missed that if I were scum, dude? Because I find it more likely that its because I didn't read through the 30 pages I missed as a fucking townie.

Someone lynch this scumbucket.

Truth be told, I'm not so concerned about the fact that you missed it.

I'm more concerned about the knee-jerk "WHY ARE YOU ACCUSING ME OF DEFENDING TOONYMAN I'M NOT DOING THAT" combined with our knowledge that Toony was scum.

So, hey, yeah, looks like Org and Joe just put down their last cards.