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Author Topic: Blood Bowl for $10 this weekend on Steam  (Read 4865 times)

nenjin

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Re: Blood Bowl for $10 this weekend on Steam
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2010, 04:20:23 pm »

Quote
Will the current version and Legendary version co-exist?
Players will be together on the lobby, they will be able to see and talk to each other, but they will not be able to play against each other.

From what it's looking like, the Legendary Edition is going to be stand alone. As in, you're not going to be able to upgrade your current version to the Legendary. At least that's the way I'm reading it.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
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varnish

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Re: Blood Bowl for $10 this weekend on Steam
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2010, 03:38:16 am »

I finally managed to get something of an idea of what I'm doing. Got a decent Dwarf team that has more wins than losses. The dice can be pretty frustrating (just like in a real tabletop game!), but they don't seem to favor the computer unfairly. I've watched the computer screw up badly at least as often as I have.

It's still irritating to have one of your players get sacked in the opponents end zone, and then see them run the ball all the way back for a last minute touchdown. Just a little bit.
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Aqizzar

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Re: Blood Bowl for $10 this weekend on Steam
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2010, 05:19:05 am »

It's still irritating to have one of your players get sacked in the opponents end zone, and then see them run the ball all the way back for a last minute touchdown. Just a little bit.

Tony Dorsett, eat your heart out.

So I'm thinking of getting this game, since Warhammer amuses me, and I've read the Bloodbowl rules before and they looked like a hoot.  It sounds like the game is devilishly hard, but I imagine it's a lot more fun playing against an equally incompetent human opponent.
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Re: Blood Bowl for $10 this weekend on Steam
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2010, 06:51:17 am »

This was worth the £4.25. Tricky, frustrating, but oh so worth it when you manage to blitz up to the player holding the ball and kill him.
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nenjin

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Re: Blood Bowl for $10 this weekend on Steam
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2010, 07:08:54 am »

The game can be really fun against others, or it can get really personal. Some people shit a brick when you foul their players.

You will also feel a lot of irritation when a goblin team, oh, knocks three players unconscious in a row, and then maims your best ball runner/catcher.

But yeah, I play against the Easy AI. The total randomness of results alone can be a punch to the stomach, if the AI wasn't doing stuff like taking insane risks as their 3rd or 4th move, or doing obviously hard-coded newbie stuff, it would probably be too hard for my taste. I can win games and run the ball, yadda yadda. But I hate losing players.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

OmnipotentGrue

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Re: Blood Bowl for $10 this weekend on Steam
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2010, 07:26:46 am »

I think I might buy this tomorrow. I'll see.
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h3lblad3

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Re: Blood Bowl for $10 this weekend on Steam
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2010, 01:05:22 pm »

So, should I just play against the AI for several matches before taking on other people?

Or will they be as incompetent at it as Aqizzar and I?
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Strange guy

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Re: Blood Bowl for $10 this weekend on Steam
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2010, 01:54:23 pm »

£4.25 is pretty cheap and I've been interested in GWS specialist games, so I'm going to get this. Slightly worried about people talking about the difficulty, but I'll probably cope.
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Shadowgandor

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Re: Blood Bowl for $10 this weekend on Steam
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2010, 05:07:02 pm »

This game is hard as hell :P I swear I could barely win from a normal opponent after losing over 9000 times (or...30 but still) and that was only in the  first cup.
 The trick is not to take any risk at all. Sure, you only have a 16.67% chance that you'll get hit by that guy and another 5% that you'll get injured but the thing is, you WILL get hit. You should always assume that, if there's a chance at failure, you will fail. :P
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nenjin

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Re: Blood Bowl for $10 this weekend on Steam
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2010, 06:05:44 pm »

Quote
So, should I just play against the AI for several matches before taking on other people?

Or will they be as incompetent at it as Aqizzar and I?

It will be stupid, but it will be better than you.

Ok, here's your crash course in BB.

Quote
The trick is not to take any risk at all.

Yes and no. BB is all about risk management. Always start with the zero risk moves and then start doing the riskier stuff.

Remember: VIRTUALLY ANY FAILURE IS A TURNOVER. Fail to pick up the ball? Turnover. Miss catch? Turnover. Getting smacked down while you're throwing a block or dodging through a tackle zone? Turnover.

So what are zero risk moves?

Moving players that aren't in tackle zones.
Standing players up.

Always always do those things first. The major reason newbies get stomped in BB is because they don't prioritize their moves correctly. For example, if you have three guys that COULD stand up, but you throw a block first and get crushed, those three guys will stay on their backs. That's when the AI just starts running circles around you.

So always do your zero risk stuff first.

Next is low risk.

Low risk moves are: hand offs and one tile passes (for most teams, Chaos has hams for hands.)
Blocks that are 3+ dice.
Picking up the ball with a suitable player.

Medium risk moves: passes over three tiles
blocking with two dice or less.
picking up the ball with a less suitable player

High risk moves:
Moving through tackle zones
long bombs
throwing through possible interceptions or while in multiple opposing tackle zones
picking up the ball with a not suited player, no rerolls and/or multiple opposing tackle zones covering the ball.
one die blocks.

Completely stupid risks:
Throwing a block where your opponent gets to choose the dice.

I single out one die blocks because it's where I made a lot of mistakes. They are almost not even worth the risk, especially if you play a squishy team. It's tempting, when presented with a lot of one die blocks, to just start doing them. DO NOT. You need to...

Maximize your block dice whenever you are going to do blocking.

To maximize your block dice, you need to understand how the blocking rules work. They're semi confusing at first.

1- Players without the "Guard" skill only provide additional block dice to a block if they aren't being covered by another opposing player. So all those unskilled linemen you got? None of those guys provide extra block dice to each other when they're on the line and toe-to-toe with people.

2- Players with "Guard" always provide a +1 bonus block dice, regardless of how many opponents they are in base to base with.

3- The "Block" skill makes it so you get to ignore the results of "Both down" on your end. While it seems niche, someone did the math and I think it means you go down like 20% less often. Anyone you are seriously planning on blocking with should have this skill.

4- Strength is king in BB. While coaches that play running and passing teams will disagree, they'll silently be agreeing when your orcs or chaos team is stomping a mud hole in the asses of their light weight performers. Never, ever pass up an opportunity to take a +1 strength advance, because stat advances are rare to begin with, and better stats are usually more valuable than new skills, since skills only apply in specific situations and stats get used for many calculations. Even your lightest weight, flimsiest runner or catcher is going to get blocked eventually, and more strength can only help them survive the encounter, or make them more useful as a blitzer.

So if you want good blocking, get everyone guard/block as soon as you can. You'll find your front line in the early game is a meat grinder, where you just chew up the opposition and leave a pile of bodies each turn.

Blitzing: There are a couple ways to use Blitz. One is for opening holes in defensive formations. Blitz with good odds against a single target in a line makes a very nice hole. Blitzing against the ball carrier is obvious. What's not always obvious is that blitzing is also about movement. Line up three blocks in your head on targets close together. Move players in to add additional block dice to the players that will be throwing blocks as their only action for the turn. THEN Blitz. Use your additional blitz movement after the block to reposition the player to add more block dice to the next block you're going to throw, or send them off out into the open. A blitz for two squares of movement is a lot of wasted movement unless it was saving a game critical moment. Blitzing just to hit a guy you couldn't hit this round, and doing it reflexively instead of planning it around your supporting blockers, is also a big waste of a blitz.

Tackle zones.

1- It is harder for a player to move out of a tackle zone, the more tackle zones they are in. You can somewhat tie up the AI by always making sure their players are covered by at least one tackle zone, but preferably two. Unfortunately, the AI has no concept of risk when it comes to tackle zones. It will happily dodge in and out of them all day if it has a plan in mind (for the easy AI, this includes stacking defensive units on the ball carrier. The Easy AI will move up to half its team through tackle zones to accomplish this. Stupid.)

The nice part of this is, you get turnovers on their turn frequently. The bad part is, you can never wholly contain the AI. They will slip out of your hold like greased lightning. Goblins are the worst. I've seen a Goblin dodge through three consecutive tackle zones without a re-roll. Don't ever rely 100% on your tackle zones to stop the AI. At best all you're doing is opening up the chance for a turn over when it goes stupid.

2- Depending on your team, you can play the same way except less stupidly. Skaven, Wood Elves, Goblins, Skinks, they all slip tackle zones like they were nothing. Just don't gamble as often as the AI. Need that extra block dice but everyone is in a tackle zone? Dodge that Gutter Runner out of his tackle zone and pile him on. Would that dodge out of a tackle zone get you a touch down? Do you have a reroll? Dodge, you'll probably make it.

3- Understanding the dodge skill. Dodge confused me when I started. It actually does two things. It allows you to re-roll a failed dodge check when moving through tackle zones. But the less obvious, and more annoying power is.....dodge allows the owning player to downgrade a defender stumbles to a pushback. Defender stumbles is the face on the die with the sunburst and the exclamation point. Why is this important? Because the exclamation point implies it's the better result (compared to defender down). It's not. So don't pick Defender Stumbles against dodgers if you can help it. It was an obvious mistake I made when I started, and I was so confused why these guys wouldn't go down when I was picking the "better" result.

Understand too that, against a character with BLOCK and DODGE, there is only two faces on the die that can cause them to go down. "Attacker down" and "defender down." They can only be dropped by one face on the die when they attack, and one where they're defending. Those odds fucking blow for you. Even with 3 dice on the block, AND rerolls, there's a significant chance you won't be able to do them any real harm. This is why all the Agi teams are infuriating to play against. There are special abilities that can counter that advantage somewhat, but just bear in mind, characters with that skill combo will make your average player's life hell.

Fouling: It's generally not worth it unless the ref has been removed or bribed. It used to be that a successful foul injury was worth Star Player Points. They took that out because they felt in encouraged people to foul way too much. As it is now, your chances of doing serious damage with your average player is pretty low, your chances of getting caught are decent and the amount of people you add to the foul doesn't have a straight linear advantage. You can stack 6 guys up on a foul and still have it do next to nothing because it didn't bypass the targets armor.

Fouling only pays dividends when you can: do a lot without getting caught, and you have the skills that enhance your ability to foul successfully and do injury. That's a lot of investment on something that, by the rules, won't earn a player more SPP. So I tend to say fuck it to fouling, unless I have nothing else better to do. It's also worth noting that, in the campaign, teams without enough players just get free mercenaries to fill out their roster. So you're not really doing anything useful in the long run by fouling the shit out of teams...unless you're taking out or degrading very good players. And you can do that just the same by throwing a totally legal block.

Go For It. The first "go for it" square is usually a freebie, you rarely fail it. The chance you fail the second one is much higher. I do it to squeek out an extra tile of movement if the player isn't doing something critical. But temptation to use a lot of GFI means you will run afoul of it, and probably at the worst possible time. Especially weak characters can even kill themselves, yes, kill themselves, with a failed GFI.

So....in a nutshell.

1) Always prioritize your turn from least risky --> most risky.
2) Always prioritize your blocks to maximize your block dice. Generally, I don't block with less than 2 dice unless I have absolutely nothing to lose by doing it. Which is to say almost never. It's better to use two guys to add two block dice (or cover two guys so the enemy isn't getting +2 block dice) to a single block, than it is to run three separate 1 die blocks. 
3) Know your abilities. It sounds obvious, but it's not when you're actually playing. Know which players are going to cause you a problem. Know which of your players need to be where at ALL TIMES. (Ex: Has the opponent formed a man-mound around the ball carrier? Throw that guy with Guard right into the heart of their formation. Everyone else that comes in to block, on average, will be doing so at 2+ dice.
4) Blitz for maximum effect, not for revenge.
5) Fouling is mostly a waste of time and points.
5) Know your team.

I put Know your Team last because it's obvious yet not. According to the numbers, Chaos shouldn't be THAT bad at ball handling. But they are. They're bloody terrible to start. It may not seem like it, but the other teams with their starting 1 or 2 skills is what makes them seem pro at the start of the game. So understand your team and how they should and shouldn't be played. The AI over looks this a lot. It may maximize it's running game with the high movement teams, but it will still try and form the cage with almost every team, even the super fragile ones. Use that to your advantage, and don't fall into the trap of playing the same way.

Basher teams have a lot less stress because, hey, you may be losing, but at least you're not getting killed. Agi teams can score all day long, but basher teams will make them pay in blood for that right. Don't fall into the trap of thinking you have to slug it out with your agi team...you don't. Control the ball and run circles around the other team. (Successful passes are worth Star Player Points, by the way.) On the flip side, don't feel like you have to chase those flighty bastards around as a basher team. Just go to work on their players, and their competitive edge will quickly go poof when half their team is unconscious or injured by the half.

When playing the AI...the thing you have to remember is that it's NOT a person. Obvious, but here's my schpiel. If you leave a semi competent catcher unguarded, when playing against a person, they will rearrange their whole strategy on the fly to support their new option. The AI doesn't do that. Sure, it moves a guy down field for a catch, and sure, if there's a clear line between thrower and receiver, it will try it. But the AI won't completely reverse itself on one tactical change. This means you can predict what the AI will and won't do in most situations. You can predict the amount of turn overs you're going to get when the ball is in their back half and it goes into "form the cage" mode, because half their players are going to try to dodge out of their initial tackle zones. You can predict which players its going to try to score with, and preferentially focus on them.

So you can kind of know that the AI is going to try do the same thing most every time. What will always throw you is the risks it's willing to go to, to accomplish it. In general, even with agi teams, I play aggressively against the AI. I never let up on the ball carrier, and I grind as many people down as I can each turn with assisted blocks. When you let the AI start playing the running game, you are in trouble, because that's when it's zero risk awareness approach starts paying off. Once they've gotten past your line, you're in deep shit. Those "haha, going to dodge through three tackle zones" moments now earn them 5 to 6 spaces of free movement, instead of the 2 or 3 it does in their back half. For FWIW, I average 75 to 80% of the game in the opponent's half of the pitch on Easy, that's how well I've gotten to know the AI.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 07:04:32 pm by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
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Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
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jnecros

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Re: Blood Bowl for $10 this weekend on Steam
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2010, 11:51:54 pm »

Man after playing with this for a few months I can't seem to get into agility teams. I really wanna play Skaven, but everytime I do they just seem too weak. So far, the Orcs are my favorite, Chaos is second and most played. Damn dwarves move too slow for my style, but they are 3rd. Most games I just try to kill as many players as possible and hope my guys survive. Also, playing against the dwarves really sucks!
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varnish

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Re: Blood Bowl for $10 this weekend on Steam
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2010, 01:17:16 am »

I've done pretty good playing as Skaven, actually. Gutter runners seem to be key. Also, I'd say that you actually want to take more risks with them than you would with other teams. I managed a 3-1 win against another Skaven team, despite the fact that for half the game I had 4 players out. If I had an opportunity to make a pass, even if it was on a roll if 4+, I went for it. If I was in range of a touchdown, I went for it, even if I had three guys blocking me. I don't think Skaven can really afford to play a defensive game, given how weak they are. You've got get the ball and run like hell with it.

I'm really starting to like the teams based on running and passing. Before that match, I had one against a wood elf team. The ball was all over the field, but I finally managed to win, 2-1. It was far more exciting than my Dwarf game, where my main and only strategy was to try to smash through one of the sides.
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nenjin

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Re: Blood Bowl for $10 this weekend on Steam
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2010, 03:00:07 am »

I too love Skaven. The problem with them is the high rate of attrition. Lizardmen, some parts of Goblins, Dwarfs, Chaos, Orcs, all these teams will leave them with a bloody nose most of the time. It sucks, but once you have enough Linemen in reserve, you're ok losing a few guys a match.

The trick to agility teams is to gamble on the dodges, and leave yourself tons of room to maneuver. Get a receiver with catch in behind the lines, blast through an opening with your high movement, then make an easy pass at the end, to your receiver who will use their 7 moves to put them in the end zone.

With agility teams, once they're two to three squares in past the line of scrimmage, they're within a one turn score. You've just got to get your ball carrier, your receiver and a few guards up that far first.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 03:02:42 am by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Aqizzar

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Re: Blood Bowl for $10 this weekend on Steam
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2010, 04:01:41 am »

Well, I have to say, that after a couple tutorials, I'm a little disappointed in Blood Bowl so far.  Namely for the three gig size, "turn the two keys at once" installation process, the fucklong loading times, all for a game that frankly doesn't looks really flat and drab.

I'll see how it plays soon enough.
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OmnipotentGrue

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Re: Blood Bowl for $10 this weekend on Steam
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2010, 05:53:30 am »

I found it quite fun on Blitz mode - my first match was 9 - 1, although that was on easy. I have to say, I like the Lizardmen a lot. I haven't actually played any of the other races yet, or Classic mode for that matter, but it's fun. I also started a career without doing a tutorial, so I sort of just winged it   ;D
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