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Author Topic: Designing a passive ventilation system for my fotress.  (Read 7369 times)

Tokkius

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Re: Designing a passive ventilation system for my fotress.
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2010, 07:45:56 pm »

I'd really enjoy a feature that tracked air temp and flow. That way, It'd be a legitimate concern when I see 20 messages that say "Dwarf McDwarf has been too hot to sleep lately".
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Zantan

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Re: Designing a passive ventilation system for my fotress.
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2010, 09:23:27 pm »

Air flow and temperature would probably just affect the happiness of a dwarf after sleeping.  Interrupting it would be kind of extreme.

My main concern, though, is eliminating fumes from exposed magma, smelting, and tanning, and odors from livestock.

It would be amazing if ventilation prevented or reduced miasma.
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Shade-o

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Re: Designing a passive ventilation system for my fotress.
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2010, 11:38:09 pm »

The air in caverns is actually very warm, even hot. I believe that on checking the temperature in adventure mode, it was 'scorching'. This is due to a combination of things, most noticeably the big freakin magma sea directly under it. In real life, a great contributor can be radioactive decay in granite, which is being investigated for geothermal energy. Most of all is that tons upon tons of stone is a fairly good insulator, so the energy isn't going anywhere.

So unless your fort is directly over a giant liquid nitrogen sea, you should be thinking about cool air coming in, hot air coming out.
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pushy

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Re: Designing a passive ventilation system for my fotress.
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2010, 05:57:20 am »

And also, you should make the ducts accessible like secret passages.
Have you never watched the Alien films?
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orbcontrolled

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Re: Designing a passive ventilation system for my fotress.
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2010, 04:52:54 pm »

I tried this once before, but got completely bogged down in the complexity, especially keeping it all reasonably compact.
Assuming high levels of "realism", there are just so many things that can ruin the air quality. I wouldn't want to re-use air that had been through any of the following:
-Any smelter or furnace: smoke from logs, gasses from metalworking
-Hospital: Contagions and general smell of death.
-Butcher: Smell of death.
-Kitchen: Fine until someone burns something, or accidentally leaves a stack of elk sandwiches to rot.
-Ashery: ashes.
-Carpenter: Sawdust, not as bad without modern power tools, but still not great.
-Dyer: I'm not sure how strong the chemicals they use would be. I'll label it a "concern" pending further data.
-Kennel: Animals, animal feces, animal urine.
-Farmer: Manure, dirt, animals, etc.
-Fishery: The smell of fish. Coming out of the vents, it's everywhere, there's no escape.
-Tannery/Leather works: Had it's own "Dirty Jobs" episode, nuff' said.
-Mason: Rock dust.
-Millstone/Quern: Unimaginable dust.
-Soapmaker? I don't know, but if it involves tallow and ash, it can't be good.

It might actually be easier to list the types of rooms in DF that don't have to be on a separate exhaust.

Recommendations:
-Don't pipe the exhaust from one room into the intake of another. There seem to be very few situations where it would be beneficial.
-Grate + Cloth = Air filter. Make sure it's accessible for cleaning.
-Create a greenhouse (or multiple greenhouses) packed to the gills with surface plants to absorb CO2. I'm not finding any relevant info online, but my instinct is that none of the plants in the caverns will be making much oxygen for a living. You'll need sunlight, and lots of it. (Now that I think about it, where does the oxygen in real-life caves come from anyway?)
-Make sure you have a good number of Z-levels to work with between caverns. You'll need it.
-Use axles and gears, and pretend it's ductwork. That way you can run separate circuits side by side in the same tunnel.

Good luck.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 04:54:34 pm by orbcontrolled »
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Sphalerite

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Re: Designing a passive ventilation system for my fotress.
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2010, 05:00:35 pm »

I do have to admit that when I first started playing DF I found it disappointing that tanneries didn't result in horrible poisoning and contamination of nearby water sources, and coal-burning furnaces didn't choke everyone nearby on smoke.  On the other hand I can only imagine how back the FPS would be if the game had to track air movement in addition to everything else.
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Zantan

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Re: Designing a passive ventilation system for my fotress.
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2010, 06:17:34 pm »

I tried this once before, but got completely bogged down in the complexity, especially keeping it all reasonably compact.

The things you listed are actually what I consider to be the easiest.  Like I said in the op, I have air flowing from residences to a central area with a 6 story high ceiling, and from there through industries and smoke stacks.  The hardest part was working out the system outside my fort so it can vent air from the surface and be easily guarded, and designing an optimal cooling system.

With that said, I would never go into this level of detail without excel and quickfort.  Right now I have the blueprints all done except for stockpiles, burrows, and the parallel hospital vents, though I'll have to mess with it a while to get it into the right format.  Also, I have been using an excel macro I made which reflects anything I add to the blueprints along eight axes of symmetry, which allows me to easily make interesting symmetrical plans by only defining 1/8 of the fort.


Edit: also, the design I have uses no stairs, only ramps.  The central area that all the ventilation goes through is a big sphere/octagon.  On the bottom half, dwarves move up and down on the inside of the sphere, and on the top half, the do so on the outside of the sphere.

-Create a greenhouse (or multiple greenhouses) packed to the gills with surface plants to absorb CO2. I'm not finding any relevant info online, but my instinct is that none of the plants in the caverns will be making much oxygen for a living. You'll need sunlight, and lots of it. (Now that I think about it, where does the oxygen in real-life caves come from anyway?)

One of the things that I really wanted to make in the new version was an underground plant that could only grow in extreme heat (near magma), which would solve a lot of problems with underground ecosystems.  Unfortunately, that is not possible.  I feel that I can overlook this issue especially because my growing area will be lit by magma shining through clear glass floors.  This is much better than using a skylight, because given how far underground my fort will probably be, a greenhouse would only get light at noon in the middle of the summer.

I think the trick in real caves is that there isn't much using what oxygen there is.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 06:58:37 pm by Zantan »
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Argonnek

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Re: Designing a passive ventilation system for my fotress.
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2010, 07:27:13 pm »

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to be downwind of a soap-maker's shop. The use of lye, which is very caustic, would make particles of it float through the air, causing chemical burns after long exposure. It'd probably cause an unhappy thought, too: "Has been irritated by airborne contaminates lately."

ledgekindred

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Re: Designing a passive ventilation system for my fotress.
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2010, 07:28:55 pm »

There are, in real world terms, no such things as "subterranean" plants.  Plants imply photosynthesis, of which part of the name is "photo" i.e. "light."  Anything you find underground that looks like a plant is going to be a fungus of some sort which do not process CO2 into O2.  Other way around really, and more so because they break down and process organic material, so they release more carbon than if they weren't there.  And in fact a lot of "real life" caves don't have a whole lot of oxygen.  Once you get much past the soil layer, unless you've got a source of above-ground water bringing nutrients from the surface to drive it,  any underground biology present will be sulfur-based.  Which means that the air in some of these caves is full of sulphur dioxide and sulphuric acid and totally unbreathable without a respirator. 

More relevant to this topic though is that there are a lot of plants that already have symbiotic relationships with specific species of fungi, without which they couldn't absorb nearly as much nutrients as they would need to live.  The fungi's mycorrhiza1 wrap around the plant's roots and break down the organics for food which also helps feed the plant.2 

Let's assume that in the DF world that any underground plants are really "plants" and not fungus, and have the same sort of biology where they break apart CO2 from the air into O2 and use the C to form the complex carbohydrates for food.  Instead of photosynthesis they'd use "thermosynthesis", utilizing heat instead of light to drive the process.  Considering the ready availability of magma it would be silly for life to not evolve to take advantage of that huge source of free energy.

We already know that the vast caverns in the DF world are populated with giant fungi, so why not also assume that the rest of the underground is just as filled with huge populations of less noticeable species. Underground crop plants have the same kind of symbiotic relationships but absolutely require their presence to help them absorb nutrients to make food.  It's likely that underground crop plants don't even have roots, but huge clumps of fungal mycorrhiza instead, anchoring them to the rock and helping them absorb nutrients.

The fungus helps break apart the organics in the mud and are probably capable of dissolving and taking up micronutrients from the rock itself.3 The water from the mud is used as a catalyst for the process, rather than used directly, which is why the mud never dries out.  It's also possible that the reaction actually does dissolve the rock, which then mixes with the water and proteins released by the fungus to form a sort of snotty layer over the rock to both retain the water (evolutionary adaptation for an environment with plenty of energy but limited access to moisture...) and protect the fungal side of the symbiote.4

Since we know that a farm plot doesn't dissolve its way through the floor in a few years, and the plants need carbon to make the sugars for food, and CO2 is the easiest place to find carbon, they get the majority of what they need to grow from the air including all kinds of micronutrients from air contaminants.  Which means an underground dwarf farm just as effective as an above-ground forest at cleaning junk out of the air! 

For each new workshop you build, please plant an extra quarry bush to help save the environment!

Of all the different industries, soapmaker is probably the one that plant life would be least capable of handling, what with all the caustic lye and all.  Anything releasing organics like ash or remains or animal waste can be used to feed the plants.  Rock dust from the masons is probably helping the plants by making micronutrients more readily available via teeny tiny dust particles instead of having to be extracted directly from the rock!  Dyer I don't know, but we know that dwarves use natural dyes from plants so it's probably no big deal at all.

Booze is also involved somehow, but it'll take some more thought to work out those details.

1. Mycorrhiza look like roots, but they are actually the fungus itself.  Mushrooms are just the fruiting body.
2. In fact a lot of species of orchids can't germinate at all without first being infested by a suitable species of fungus because baby orchids have no roots at all to absorb nutrients they need to grow.
3. Lichens can actually do this, and lichens are real-world symbiotes of fungus and algae. 
4. Those underground bacteria based on sulfur biologies do exactly this.  The chemical reactions they use to get energy from Sulfur compounds creates sulfuric acid which dissolves the rock away and creates a goopy snotty pile of goo made of dissolved rock, water, sulfuric acid and kajillions of bacteria.  Extremely corrosive bacterial snot, hooray!

....   

I just biology-nerded big-time didn't I...

« Last Edit: September 10, 2010, 07:32:45 pm by ledgekindred »
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I don't understand, though that is about right with anything DF related.
I just hope he dies the same death that all dwarfs deserve: liver disease.
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dogstile

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Re: Designing a passive ventilation system for my fotress.
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2010, 09:56:47 pm »

You dug too deep dude.
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Wardo

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Re: Designing a passive ventilation system for my fotress.
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2010, 10:17:52 pm »

Is it possible to mod these messy workshops to generate miasma when/after used?
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Zantan

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Re: Designing a passive ventilation system for my fotress.
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2010, 10:56:49 am »

Is it possible to mod these messy workshops to generate miasma when/after used?

I'm not sure about miasma, but if we changed certain reactions to sometimes produce a poisonous compound that evaporates at room temperature, we could have some tasks slowly poison workers, similar to the black lung disease incorporated into the Genesis mod (I forget who came up with that before Deon).  Issues of ventilation would not be addressed, but it would add other forms of realism, and at least give an incentive to keep dirty industry separate from the general population.  Dwarven hardiness should be taken into account, though, so it shouldn't substantially affect dwarves until they've been in dirty industries for years.

Edit: Just found out that black lung was removed from the Genesis mod a while ago.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 05:05:10 pm by Zantan »
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MaDeR Levap

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Re: Designing a passive ventilation system for my fotress.
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2010, 07:09:39 pm »

(Science of fantasy game)
God... so... much... dead... catgirls...
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Urist Imiknorris

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Re: Designing a passive ventilation system for my fotress.
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2010, 07:28:45 pm »

(Science of fantasy game)
God... so... much... dead... catgirls...

The purpose of DF is to genocide catgirls. And cats.
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iceball3

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Re: Designing a passive ventilation system for my fotress.
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2010, 07:38:46 pm »

Well that kinda sucks. Why does everyone kill their cats? I've done several forts without any cat butchery, and their population never went above 25. :-\
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