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[SnuffleKitty]

Ah EVE Fanboism at loose.

Don't be such an offensive douche. I've played it well over a year. Granted, that's not the several years some addicts have in that shit, but it's not a 7 day trial. I wish I could remember what my ship was and its build, all I remember is that it was a V shaped thing full of spikes or antennas, whatever they were.

Wurm has a certain level of complexity, but it was such a menu-clickfest it was annoying. I hear they fixed some of that now.

See, I could really care less whether or not you like the game. But you constant trolling turns potential players off from trying it; other people who might actually enjoy the game given half the chance.

Stop being a dick.

On topic:

Pirates of the Burning Sea was fun for a while: I was in the Open Beta for a couple of weeks. The ship combat was spot-on, and quite a bit of fun, if a little shallow. But the avatar combat, the swords-play, was a complete mess. But that was a few years ago, so they might have improved it since then.

-Snuffles

[Hugehead]

Runescape is actually more complex in it's base parts than most of the other games mentioned here so far, sure it was mine, mine some more, now go furnace it, glue your thingy together, repeat twenty or so times and you have a decent skill! But it has more steps to the process than most others, It would probably be Wurm or Runescape for the two most complex games I've tried.

[Ivefan]

See, I could really care less whether or not you like the game. But you constant trolling turns potential players off from trying it; other people who might actually enjoy the game given half the chance.

Puck and Soulwynd was debating with rather rational posts that weren't too subjective. How is that trolling? And said people that might enjoy it aren't entitled to know the negative side of the game they consider spending money on?

[Soulwynd]

And said people that might enjoy it aren't entitled to know the negative side of the game they consider spending money on?

There's the free trial for that and I doubt forum members seeing this thread will be discouraged to try it because of me, despise Snuffle thinking so highly of my trolling skills. I think the most interesting thing that I've found in common with all the eve discussions that I've had is that it seems everyone who loves eve either cannot play games on a regular basis, doesn't play eve anymore, or only plays it on weekends for a couple hours. It's such a strange mix of casualness and elitism.

Runescape is actually more complex in it's base parts than most of the other games mentioned here so far

If minigames count towards the complexity of a game, I recommend both puzzle pirates and free realms. Puzzle pirates is just plain fun if you like logical mini games and poker, yes, pirate poker. I used to pay off for my monthly tokens with poker. As for Free Realms, it perhaps has the best crafting minigames I've ever seen in a game. Some of them are childish and simplistic but they are actually based on what you are doing. For example, to cook a certain recipe, you will have to slice ingredients, fry them, mix them up and so on. To craft a sword for example, you have to heat the steel, cast, hammer, temper, etc. The mining minigame is the typical match 3+ puzzle, but it's nevertheless fun, since you can spot rare metal and try to grab it in the puzzle. It can be a great minigame mmo, if you can get past the fucking creepy highschool jock&cheerleader look of the game.

[Hugehead]

It's hard to compare PP to a regular MMO in complexity since they are so massively different and people have different feelings about how "complex" puzzles are.

[Sergius]

I had a really good post all written up, and hit backspace and stupid Firefox deleted everything...

I hope it was about Ryzom or any other MMO than EVE.

The general spin of my post was that I think "complexity" as I understand it in games comes from "having many different things to do" other than killing, or looting, or "getting teh xp". Not just that you can, because you're not restricted (like in the latter game, that I won't mention) but because it is an integral, designed part of the game.

Then I said for example, Wurm was pretty complex, but suffered from crappy graphics, bugs, a horrible horrible painful interface, and a total absence of fun (not Fun... it had plenty of Fun, but it wasn't any fun). And then I mentioned other game, which I forgot right now.

Basically, elements like crafting (but not everybody making the same Legendary Vibranium Sword of Underpant Disintegration +12 from one of those darned "recipes"), interesting building (City of Heroes, for example, let's you make a decently different Headquarters/Base/wossname) make a game complex IMO. Having a really complex formula dealing with imaginary numbers for calculating hit rolls is not complexity to me, in game design terms.

Just clearing that out, in case my definition of "complex" is not the same as the rest of the posters in this thread.

[yamo]

http://www.core-exiles.com/

http://game.advancedpowers.com/apme/newspaper.php

http://g1.chosenspace.com/

http://smrealms.de/login.php

[Trekkin]

I can only second(or third, if I missed one) shores of hazeron. If it's working on a given day, it's absolutely beautiful mechanically and potentially very intricate. It made me WANT to do calculus.

Besides, standing on the deck of a battleship you just designed down to the floor plan and built out of materials you set up the industries to gather, watching the entire thing move through the void on your orders is wonderfully fulfilling.

[darius]

Check out the RPGWO (rpg world online):

• landownership
• everything craftable
• rune based magic
• shitload of skills (with great leveling)

[Dura]

A game's complexity is pretty much what you make of it. I'll take WoW, which many people dismiss out of hand; although it is user-friendly and easy to level up in, you'll find quite a challenge if you try and get to the top in arena (pvp) or get in a top (say world top 100) pve guild. It's extremely complex and unlike EvE, the fights last more than 5 seconds, which imo makes it much more interesting(if less stressful) and gives you a better chance to display your knowledge of game mechanics and correct positionning. I think it'll be similar for most ''big'' MMO's, where there is enough depht that you'll never find the bottom if you want to find it. Complex doesent have to mean its not user-friendly, or easy to get started without 500 hours of reading.

Oh and snuffle, my email got hacked and all so I wont risk getting my eve account keylogged, should get my computer clean in a few days...

[Duelmaster409]

Check out the RPGWO (rpg world online):

• landownership
• everything craftable
• rune based magic
• shitload of skills (with great leveling)

While RPGWO's a pretty massive and vast game, it seriously lacks players last I checked. Back in the day there used to be around 40 players on a server at one time, but now there's only like 3.

[Virtz]

A game's complexity is pretty much what you make of it. I'll take WoW, which many people dismiss out of hand; although it is user-friendly and easy to level up in, you'll find quite a challenge if you try and get to the top in arena (pvp) or get in a top (say world top 100) pve guild. It's extremely complex and unlike EvE, the fights last more than 5 seconds, which imo makes it much more interesting(if less stressful) and gives you a better chance to display your knowledge of game mechanics and correct positionning. I think it'll be similar for most ''big'' MMO's, where there is enough depht that you'll never find the bottom if you want to find it. Complex doesent have to mean its not user-friendly, or easy to get started without 500 hours of reading.

Yeah, see, when people talk about complex games, they generally mean in gameplay, not in whatever else. WoW has a simplistic crafting system, a simplistic health system, a simplistic level system, a simplistic monster respawn system, and an unremarkable stat system. It's just finely polished and somewhat balanced, but it's by no stretch of the imagination complex.

[Apple Master]

Does this include MUDS, MOO'S and others?

[Astral]

Yeah, see, when people talk about complex games, they generally mean in gameplay, not in whatever else. WoW has a simplistic crafting system, a simplistic health system, a simplistic level system, a simplistic monster respawn system, and an unremarkable stat system. It's just finely polished and somewhat balanced, but it's by no stretch of the imagination complex.

Have to agree here; WoW may have been complex once upon a time, but now it's been dumbed down so much that it's becoming the Farmville of MMO's. World of Casualcraft. And Cataclysm will do more to make it simpler in order to make more money (by getting more casuals to play), by reducing the number of stats people have to keep track of, reducing the talent trees, etc.

[Puck]

WoW may have been complex once upon a time

WaiWUT? As long as you always had 2 braincells to rub together, wow never was more complex than

Spoiler (click to show/hide)