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[Puck]

That isnt even the real problem with CCP imho. A dev scamming just like the rest of the playerbase, thats just human. The moneygrubbin attitude they... displayed before I stopped, thats what turned me off big time. They treated the players like idiots with stupid damage control instead of being honest and jsut stating "we want more money". Everybody would have accepted that. But the shit they fed their players, that was just way out of line.

I manage to hate eve, big time, too. I'm glad I stopped playing. But (I dont know the state of the game today) I still respect it. And I know first hand, that a lot of complaints about eve just come from... dumb people. SP are SO unimportant for isntance. I pirated with 6 hour old characters and had an awesome time doing so. All you need is propulsion jamming 1 and some brains.

And believe me when I say eve can put you in situations in which complex decisions need to be made in split seconds. I dont think I'm dumb when I think eve is complex and soulwynd claims its really that simple. The friggin transversal mechanics or how missiles works, sig radius, all that stuff, the most basic to hit calculations, while comparatively simple on their own, get friggin uncomputable when you apply it to a small gang fight. So much stuff that can go right or wrong, its awesome. I had so many fights in which I learned stuff and I can STILL remember fights in which things happened which I dont even FULLY understand today.

The directional scanner alone can take months til you udnerstand how to work it real good, and even after months you will get better, as a person, not somehow SP wise. I mean, how many people friggin STILL PINPOINT SCAN! Veterans, you hear me? They PINPOINT SCAN! FFS! How can one NOT learn how to rangefilter!

Seriously, there are SO many variables in even the simplest combat situations, its awesome and I dare say most people miss this. They just cannot see the big picture. As soon as shit hits the fan, its almost unpossible to process all the data involved, trust me.

every other mmo (or generic teambased strategy number crunching game for that matter) I played cannot hold a candle to the nice complexity eve can provide on a daily basis. Granted, sometimes you actively have to look for it, but hey.

Seriously, for instance, help me understand in what way AO could be more complex? Skill synergies? All that wrangling going on? I found AO to be very bland and uninspired, it was just a bit special because iirc it was the first big MMO with a 3d engine, but is that special in any way? Serious question, btw. I'm really curious.

edit: btw and not without reason the financial times has had several serious articles about the eve online economy.... and im not talking about goldfarming or anything, no, about the ingame economy.

[nenjin]

I'll admit, my problems with EVE are largely on principle. (I have one friend who would agree that there are a fuck ton of mechanics at work that do justice to a Space Sim, and it's not a jerk off total abstraction as it's been treated elsewhere.)

I've always stayed out of games where they let real life cash become part of the equation. I believe in an equal playing field, and that buying your way through a game experience defeats the whole point of playing. So that's immediately made EVE not a game I'd ever play. And it makes me somewhat fearful for the future of WoD Online (since it's CCP and they're all about the monies.) To the same token, I'd have dropped WoW like it was hot from day 1 had they announced Blizzard support for cash for gold exchanges.

So for the schlub that just wants to tool around mining or pirating on a small scale, yeah I've heard the financial considerations aren't something you need to worry about. But if you aspire to higher levels of game play, it starts to become more visible and lot more relevant.

[Puck]

I'll admit, my problems with EVE are largely on principle. (I have one friend who would agree that there are a fuck ton of mechanics at work that do justice to a Space Sim, and it's not a jerk off total abstraction as it's been treated elsewhere.)

Well... a bit, maybe, the gun mechanics, but its largely a jerkoff abstraction. The friggin celestial bodies dont even fucking orbit each other!

Look at shores of hazeron. Its still laggy as fuck, it looks like shit, but its got electrolytes potential!
This will be an awesome space sim. EvE is more like a ... generic MMO with space disguise... but its still incredibly deep.

The money=advantage means nothing on a small player scale, thats true. And yeah, I never bothered with politics so much, I try to avoid that in ALL mmos. But when a titan goes down and you hear the alliance lets the hat go round for rl moneh so they can buy a new one, yeah, that makes you sick. But what can you do... EVERY mmo has that, and the fact that this actually has a real, noticeable and sad impact in eve is actually a good argument for the economy.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

I've always stayed out of games where they let real life cash become part of the equation. I believe in an equal playing field, and that buying your way through a game experience defeats the whole point of playing. So that's immediately made EVE not a game I'd ever play.

What the hell are you on about? The "hey you can buy gametime from other players with in-game currency" shit? All that does is cut out the godawful grind of the game, if you take advantage of it early one, and provide free play time if you're far enough along to take advantage of it from the other side. Skills, the big limiter on what you can do, train constantly, and no amount of money will make them go faster, and just about anything you'd fly before you were at the point where you could make enough in game to buy gametime would go for about the cost of a pack of average cigarettes or a six pack of cheap beer. Considering the experiences EVE is so lauded for generally come at significant risk and in general lose you ISK, all someone can buy their way out of it is the mindnumbing grind that EVE is so often condemned for.

You're extremely unlikely to ever so much as see, let alone be affected in any way by, the things that work out to hundreds or thousands of dollars, unless you really like being a meaningless drone in a thousand strong legion of meaningless drones, spending all your time to advance the personal goals of a select few members.

[Ivefan]

I'll refrain from continuing debating Puck on EVE and just say this - There is no 'Complex' mmo's.
It just comes down to number crunching and theory craft. It's not Complexity to know every nuance of pvp play, that's skill. To remember all statistics and to react fast to circumstances is not that a game has been made complex but rather that the player is competitive.
Is Counter-strike, Battlefield and such games complex? I think that most would say no in general.
So what Puck refers to complexity in his second to last post can just as well be compared to knowing the arc of a mortar grenade, the distance/bulletspeed relation for a sniper or being able to 'bunnyjump' in earlier versions of CS.
The knowledge and the ability to perform such actions is due credit to ones skill, not that it is a complex mechanic in the game.

well, That or I am just having my own perception of what a complex game is.

On the topic of Cash for gold in mmos, I've always felt annoyed by it, but it haven't affected me much/often. At least until i played Aion which was bot infested and had inflated auction prices almost from the start. A friend went over to the opposing faction, just outside a city, and started killing them, managing to kill 20+ before an actual player came by... And thats kinda tragic.

[Puck]

http://eve.klaki.net/heist/page-1.jpg
http://eve.klaki.net/heist/page-2.jpg
http://eve.klaki.net/heist/page-3.jpg
http://eve.klaki.net/heist/page-4.jpg

More often than not, eve isnt that cool, sadly. But this ... rawks. I encourage you guys to read it.

[Sensei]

You guys haven't tried Hazeron, I take it?

Arguably more complex than EVE (which I've played). Although a lot of that is city management, and it's padded by poorly explained interfaces. Still, try to fly a space ship manually.

[Soulwynd]

@Puck

I know puck, but that's akin to playing TF2 where a bunch of your team is near a bunch of the other team and you have to make the best of what you have and rely on the features of the other team members. It's not an intrinsic complexity of the system itself, it's the open interaction that makes it complex at the moment. Yes, I know there are some complex to use features in EVE and that there are enough to appeal to almost every type of player.

When I played EVE and I did it about 4 times, one of which lasted months and months, I played as the mean missile artillery (minmatar? I think) frigate. If I remember correctly, my ship had either 6 or 7 missile racks, nearly one for each occasion. We played in large teams normally and I was the guy responsible for picking out runners (They get hurt, align to run, they get missiles up their ass before that happens) and wearing down shields with those anti-shield missiles. I'm not saying that bit wasn't fun, it was fun even when losing, but that's team pvp. Team pvp is fun in nearly every game there is. The problem when I was left alone with the game. It was boring and so annoying the fun bits didn't feel worth it.

About the financial articles on the EVE market, it's because the eve market runs in a localized open bid system, which is a pretty simple system that allows for complex interactions. It mimics the real [stock] market, which is simple by design. So it's no wonder people write articles about it, it's a good reference to the real market. I doubt there's a way to actually create a complex market unless you started adding multiple currencies with player ran exchange ratios, player ran banks, loans, governments dictating stupid rules, and so on. I know there were player loans and banks but I don't remember it being actually in the system as well. (actually took a few loans back in the day)

The AO thing was a bit of a joke, I confess, but it's one of the MMOs I actually enjoyed and played for years. The complex bits of AO aren't really available to new players, sadly, and a lot of it isn't available to free users either. it mostly has to do with the crafting of implants and forcing your character to wear items he otherwise wouldn't be able to, yes with a bit of wrangling help and implant planning. Basically being a munchkin. One of my hacker (forgot the name of the class) characters was level 100 wearing level 180 equipment for example, that took a lot of work and money. The tower wars is also something that took a lot planning to pull out right and then there was the city building and alien raiding, but those elements are also present in EVE in one form or another. The problem with AO is that it if you have the paid version, you can do some special grind where you basically form a group with a kite and go kill stuff you otherwise couldn't normally, getting levels really fast. I guess it's one of the perks of paying for the game, but it creates some discrepancies. The other problem is that PVP is really lacking, even with the towers and the new expansion, it's a bit sad.

@The cash-gold issue & CCP money hunger.

I don't care really care about cash-gold conversions and as long as there's player skill involved, it doesn't bother me. In fact, it's gratifying when you kill someone who spent real money in equipment, with your common equipment. As for CCP I've always said and will always say that the skill system in EVE is a scam. It's there to make people keep on paying and as much as someone can say "You can buy game time with in game money so it's free!" It's not, someone else paid for that, so CCP got monies anyway to support the scam skill system.

But that goes for a lot of MMOs where you have super fast fun leveling at first and then boom, slow down, gotta work work work to get a level. It's their way of lengthening the game and force people to play longer. Meanwhile, I'm a firm believer that making sure people have fun would make them stay instead. EVE is just a lot more blatant and stupid about it. If they actually sold the skills for money and let you upgrade it instantaneously, I think it would be a more honest stance since that's basically what it is.

[nenjin]

But that goes for a lot of MMOs where you have super fast fun leveling at first and then boom, slow down, gotta work work work to get a level. It's their way of lengthening the game and force people to play longer. Meanwhile, I'm a firm believer that making sure people have fun would make them stay instead. EVE is just a lot more blatant and stupid about it. If they actually sold the skills for money and let you upgrade it instantaneously, I think it would be a more honest stance since that's basically what it is.

Well, that's how the behavioral scientists like to see it. As a gamer I believe you need experience curves to provide a complete experience. You want the game to slow down at some point so the player's brain can catch up with the expanding rules and options. The flip side of that is the grind, yeah, but it's not purely evil in principle. Cash for gaming though...I play games to get away from the real world, not to trade one money-dominate world for another.

[Puck]

6 or 7 missile racks, nearly one for each occasion

Did you fit different launchers?

also, the missile race are the caldari. The carebear kings minmatar are the mad max style rustbuckets with projectile weapons.

edit: I nearly forgot... your complaint about the "scam skill" system. That is true these days. Or rather might be true, and its still open to interpretation, but they changed something so by now I sort of agree with you.

CCP stated, years ago, that skill training for UNPAID accounts continues, and this was a core feature and design decision and will never ever change. So you create a guy, if you really want to, you can play a month or two, til you hit some of those evil barrier skills, then let the account run out and train cruisers V or whatever. (cruisers V... hmmm I LOVED this skill to death)

Sure, if you want to not lose time AT ALL, your account needed to be paid for whenever it was time to change a skill.

While not perfect, I thought it was an alright system.

Now they changed it. You dont pay, you dont train. And they were dicks about it. So now I tend to agree a bit with you. (but not really, because for it to be a scam there needs to be somehting deceived).

Dont get me wrong. I made use of that feature only once and that was accidentially. When they took it away, I missed nothing. Just the fact THAT they took it away, even tho they promised they wouldnt, and THEN fed us some stupid excuses, that pissed me off. I dont like to be treated like an idiot, unless in very rare kinky situations, and when my account finally ran out, I thought, hey why not, I take this game way to serious anyway. And quit. I'm not sure, but I think CCPs dickmove played a large part in my quitting.

And while I see we're all reaching a level of working communication now, I still have to bitch a bit:
yes, eve mechanics are more complex than most other stuff. It might be just maths, but once you have a certain fitting idea in mind, maybe something nobody ever did with that certain ship, and you KNOW you have to find a certain iteration of a certain part to make it fit, and suddenly the ship is complete and fits with 0.0 pg and 0.0 cpu left... that alone is a lot more complex than just dragging a super awesome robe of super awesomeness +3 on a little paperdoll.

last but not least: since I stopped eve I lost 20-25 kg, go outside again and I get laid a lot more again. But still... a very big part of me misses eve like crack.

[Astral]

Holy crap, I write three sentences and Puck goes on a paragraph spree defending the game. Not to be rude or anything, but your posts reek of fanboyism; it was just my two cents. I didn't say it was bad, just not nearly as 'deep' as many people consider it to be. Its like most games: Once you figure out what information is important and learn to filter out what isn't, it becomes much easier and much simpler.

Doesn't stop it from being a borefest. I liked it, but it was boring.

[Soulwynd]

6 or 7 missile racks, nearly one for each occasion

Did you fit different launchers?

The memory is very vague, besides it being insured to the max and having one or two clones of that ship. It was a good setup for its role. I remember there being rockets for some quick kabang on slowed ships and I don't remember having heavy versions of the launchers. Altho, I'm not even sure there were heavy versions when I played it the first time.

Yes, I was always pissed you had 3 character slots and was only able to train a single one. What was the point then? Your other characters would just fall behind. I know there are quick combat builds but you end up with a stagnating character.

So they're basically selling skill and isk for money now. It ends up being a sad waiting game after you reach a certain point. On other mmos you can grind a bit more on the weekend and feel you got a bit ahead, but with the slow skills? Just wait and pay.

I liked the ship customization in EVE, yes. It's very akin to how you need to work your implants in AO since they have requirements to fit and some of them actually raise the stat that is required. So to have a good overpowered fit, you need to plan ahead for what you want and then either run or have someone run missions for the parts for your set. Neocron2 features something similar where you have to get yourself drugged up to fit something you want, har.

[Puck]

Holy crap, I write three sentences and Puck goes on a paragraph spree defending the game. Not to be rude or anything, but your posts reek of fanboyism; it was just my two cents. I didn't say it was bad, just not nearly as 'deep' as many people consider it to be. Its like most games: Once you figure out what information is important and learn to filter out what isn't, it becomes much easier and much simpler.

Doesn't stop it from being a borefest. I liked it, but it was boring.

I'm actually talking to soulwynd , and we had this same discussion quite some time ago, thats why I mention the skill thing, because thats his old complaint.

Also, I sort of take offense in the word fanboi, I'm around since "Pong", yeah, old enough for that. EvE is just a good game, but its sad to see the direction CCP is taking. But what can you do. Its a little bit of a "Cartman's Theme Park" situation they got themselves into.

[Puck]

The memory is very vague, besides it being insured to the max and having one or two clones of that ship. It was a good setup for its role. I remember there being rockets for some quick kabang on slowed ships and I don't remember having heavy versions of the launchers. Altho, I'm not even sure there were heavy versions when I played it the first time.

At any rate, what I wanted to say is... you can have a discussion for hours and hours about why you never ever ever mix weapon systems on a ship (exception being the typhoon, but even there, you PICK TWO and stay with them. you dont go half half on one weapon system). You could break it down to 2 minutes of rules of thumb, like everything in eve, but in the end you can talk about it for hours, crunch numbers and theorycraft. You can do the same shit with drones. Or guns. Or any little facet of the game. They have enough variables and situational thingyness that incredibly complex decisions can result from all this.

But you have to suffer a bit, just like when you start with DF, or shores of hazeron. You have to break on through to the other side. And i know how this wall is made of spreadsheet, dayjob and boredom. But that garden on the other side would make Abdul Alhazred jealous.

Something I REALLY love about eve: You can have the same mechanics in place for years. Suddenly somebody comes along and has an idea nobody else had and leads to a paradigm shift. In ship design. Or PvP tactics.

Its really frikkin awesome to see stuff like htis in a game with several thousand active players.

[Deon]

It looks like some people just cannot stop :/.


And yeah, even I read that story about the double-agent . It was pretty popular. However it was a single one I know.