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[puke]

Not enough love for Greg Stolze in this thread.  He's the best person in the role playing field.   

i dont know, im not that big of a fan.  I liked "a dirty world" but basically everything else ORE is used for leaves me kind of flat.  he doesnt seem to have a very high opinion of anyone who isnt Greg Stolez, and i dont think hes quite hot enough to be that full of himself.  David Brin rubs me the same way, but at least I like his work.

He's kind of like the new Robin Laws, the next big indy game writer who thinks he knows how everyone should have their fun.  The whole "ransoming" of his future publications smacks of some pretty serious schmuckery, too.  if, as a business person, you cant run some CBA projections on wither or not to finance a project, you really need to find another line of work.

but hey, to each their own.  if i was going to sit here and tell you why not to like Stolze's stuff, i wouldnt be any better than him.

but if we're name dropping indy developers, I really like Vincent Baker (lumpley games, dogs in the vinyard) and Rebecca Borgstrom (IOSHI, nobilis).

[Capntastic]

I don't see how you can rightfully assert Greg Stolze is full of himself without some real proof.   I mean, he's a pretty easy going dude, and the entire Progenitor setting came about from him posting a what if? thread and building on his own and others ideas.  He's pretty much a major friend of the community, more than some self-styled idol as you're inferring.

Edit, furthermore:  To be sure, I wasn't namedropping so much as educating those who're not familiar.  It'd be a sign of good faith if you do the same.  I've never heard of Robin Laws, for example, and I don't know who David Brin is either.  You'd do well to explain what makes Dogs in the Vineyard good, if you're going to rep it.

Edit the second:  Also you seem to be implying that "making sure people want his product, which costs a considerable amount of money and time to produce hard copies of" is "ransom", and that he should be able to figure out if he should front the costs or not?   Well, A: He's not a businessman- and B: He's doing that by getting a show of hands on who wants to pre-order it.   It's a fairly good system and hasn't prevented anything from coming out in a hardcopy.   What's more, PDFs would've been available regardless.

[nenjin]

He's kind of like the new Robin Laws, the next big indy game writer who thinks he knows how everyone should have their fun.

I'd be particularly interested to hear what this relates to. It's rare to hear that accusation thrown out at game devs.

[Bouchart]

No mention of the Timecube RPG?

http://www.folded.com/jeff/fridge/timecube.shtml

[puke]

no, the ransom thing is a word that he used ( http://www.gregstolze.com/ransom.html ).  i didnt mean it insulitngly, its a self description on their part.  some people might think it's keen, but i think its unprofessional an immature.  agree to disagree, and move on. 

if you like his stuff, thats cool.  if other people try it and like it based on your reviews, thats cool too. the more diversity in the market the better, says me.  something for everybody.

Dogs in the Vinyard is a pretty well reviewed indy game, gets a little representation at cons and such.  a quick google will turn up better reviews than I could give you on the topic.  its... group narative where the players are partly in charge of setting the scene. sort of collaborative story telling, though there is still a central GM role.  themes are alternate history old west, PCs are like (they dont actually mention the word mormon anywhere but..) mormon hitler youth or something that go around enforcing the tennants of the faith.  it can be played in a very forthright way where people are pillars of the community doing the right things to fight demons, or it can be played more darkly.  depends entirely on how you interprate it.  down side is that it needs BUCKETS of all sorts of dice. http://www.rpg.net/reviews/search-review.phtml?query=1&productName=dogs+in+the+vineyard

Nobilis is a pretty old indy game, as far as those things go.  really, its easier just to look at existing reference material. it is a "hidden world" kind of thing like unknown armies or world of darkness, but you play "powers" or minor demigods in charge of an abstract concept or a word.  its  inovative, and manages to be diceless without totally sucking (im looking at you, Amber).   http://www.rpg.net/reviews/search-review.phtml?query=1&productName=nobilis

IOSHI was one of the four or five settings that came with GOO's last hurah, Ex Machina (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/search-review.phtml?query=1&productName=ex+machina) and it was good.  post cyberpunk, you really have to read it -- i cant sum it up without quoting it to you.  basically.. hmm... i dont even know where to start.  the world is divided up along cultural lines, but they are amorphous sub-cultures that people can belong to without geographic boundries.  values compete for market space in a world that can be best described as pathologically capitalist.  not the megacorp kind of capitalism, but such a fluid free market witout any distinct corporate forms that its hard to wrap your head around.  the driving technology is the ability to have tallents uploaded into your brain if you have enough money for the services, and with that you can get what (when mixed with technology) is basically superpowers.  I cant do it justice, it's really brilliant.

anyway, tristat sort of sucks so i wouldnt recommend using it with the rules as written.  I ran a short campaign of it with SR4 rules a few years back and it was pretty good.  of course, someone is going to chime in here with how great tristat is.  someething for everyone, like i said.

[puke]

He's kind of like the new Robin Laws, the next big indy game writer who thinks he knows how everyone should have their fun.

I'd be particularly interested to hear what this relates to. It's rare to hear that accusation thrown out at game devs.

okay, let me preface this by saying that this IS NOT A BAD BOOK.  and the advice in it is JUST FINE.  I just think that the whole idea smacks of absolute schmuckery. 

http://www.sjgames.com/robinslaws/

again, its my problem, not yours.  just calling it like i see it.

[Capntastic]

I'll concede on the ransom thing (though I disagree with you on it being 'immature'), and I appreciate you adding some info about the games you repped, but you forgot to clarify exactly what you meant by Stolze being full of himself.   If you're gonna pile on with "he doesnt seem to have a very high opinion of anyone who isnt Greg Stolez, and i dont think hes quite hot enough to be that full of himself." then I'd at least like to know what causes you to say that.

[nenjin]

Considering he just made a glorified "Tips and Tricks" section from a DMG and put his name on it...yeah, I can see where you'd get that impression.

[puke]

I'd at least like to know what causes you to say that.

the vibe i get from reading the forwards in his book and reading his blog is just that.  the vibe that i personally get.  its inference.  i dont like the way he cuts his jib. 

like i said above, its the same complaint i level at Brin (scifi author.  try google.).  Reading articles and comentary by the guy leaves me with the clear impression that he doesnt like anyone who isnt him.  Now a friend of mine had a beer with Brin once, and tells me differently about him.  so maybe he just comes off like an asshole when he is writing op-ed pieces about science and literature.  and maybe Stolze just sounds like a pompous jerk when he is writing his own prefaces, I cant really be sure.  but the fact that there are people on the internet that evangalize him as the best thing to happen to gaming since polyhedral dice... well, i suspect that im not reading to much into it when i say some of that niche cliqueish popularity exhibits its self in his own writing about himself.

as a more tangible complaint, i think the ORE is cumbersome to use and doesnt adapt easily to my usual style of play.  I really loved how it worked in "A Dirty World" but I dont think I'd play it for more than a one shot.  it was worth the price of the book, but i cant see it functioning in a campaign.

but other people play differently.  and I dont like the FATE or Gumshoe systems either (wanted to.  tried to.  couldnt.), so maybe i'm just a big mean indy hater.  probably not, though.  probably just different tastes.

[Neyvn]

There were a few players around my part, but they all stopped after we all relised what a bitch one of us was, a Minmaxer and Real ass of a player, always butting in when you are saying what you want to do and telling the GM what you are doing, telling everyone that she is the one to distribute the loot and doing the most assholic things ever. "I am playing a Medic and being such a weak character I need this +10 Battleaxe of Rouge's Shadow, which would so much be a better weapon for the rouge but I need it even though I have no skill ability to use it and you can but here have this stick..." (Exchange the battleaxe for a Minigun but keep the Medic and no skills, and the stick for a Pistol)

But anyway...

There is a Firefly RP - This is about the Cult TV show of pure epic space cowboy awesomeness!!!

This one called BNTN (Bump in the Night) - Take your usual bad monsters and make them PC and put them in moden times...

There is a few Fallout Pen and Paper RPs out there that no one reliese that they exist too...

[Draco18s]

I'm just going to drop Alpha Omega in here.

I'll also mention the Dresden Files RPG.  It's got a nice system.

Yeah, I'd love to play more shadowrun, even online.

Shadowrun is one of those games that, if someone made a by-the-book mmorpg, it would be grand.

You might be interested in this thread, though for the most part, there won't be a good ShadowRun MMO ever (not while Microsoft holds the electronic copyrights).

[Sowelu]

There is a Firefly RP - This is about the Cult TV show of pure epic space cowboy awesomeness!!!

Oh yeah, how is that game?  I mean, I see it all over the place.

The main issue I've heard is that the setting is surprisingly poorly developed.  Like, the show's setting is very cool on the outside and quite enjoyable but doesn't have all that much meat--so if you tried to run your own thing in that world, you would run out of verisimilitude very fast.  How true is that, and how good are the mechanics?  If it's decent, that might be a good next setting for my game group (once the Deadlands game I'm starting inevitably wipes).

[Draco18s]

There is a Firefly RP - This is about the Cult TV show of pure epic space cowboy awesomeness!!!

Oh yeah, how is that game?  I mean, I see it all over the place.

The main issue I've heard is that the setting is surprisingly poorly developed.  Like, the show's setting is very cool on the outside and quite enjoyable but doesn't have all that much meat--so if you tried to run your own thing in that world, you would run out of verisimilitude very fast.  How true is that, and how good are the mechanics?  If it's decent, that might be a good next setting for my game group (once the Deadlands game I'm starting inevitably wipes).

Our preacher decided to start "practicing" proctology.  Player was later silently banned from any future RPG games.
Our Engineer and chef (me) decided to make booze in the hold.  Some good rolls (gm fiat) and 50 gallons of tech x5 booze later....
...We sold it on a backwater planet for mad cash...
...Not that we had any idea what "money" was really worth, as the 'costs of travel' were essentially free (travel between planets in the same system was explicitly free, and traveling to other systems you'd only do if you were hauling something, which would cover the fuel costs...)

Then there's the "trust fund" quality, which with my character not even trying to whore it, could have--on a max roll--"just acquired" a drop ship (a shuttle/ship's boat--$18,000).  Whoring out the two stats you could, on average, "just acquire" drop ships on a monthly basis.  Max-roll you could almost buy your own (very small) ship (max possible was something like $30,000 and the cheapest actual ship was just over $32,000 IIRC)....without having to actually have the money on your sheet.

[Sowelu]

Our preacher decided to start "practicing" proctology.  Player was later silently banned from any future RPG games.

Oh god, my RPG group.  I would have to ban slightly more than half of them.  As it is, I just shy away from the campaigns that...uh, anyone else in the group runs, half the time...and I try to run serious settings because my god they will turn anything else horrible.  It would be so nice to play in a less-serious campaign, without it always ending up in exactly the territory of which you speak, or worse, much worse.

Thus, Deadlands.  Because if they start slacking off and being jerks, or trying to get horrible horrible mutations for the lulz (you do NOT want to know), then well...it IS a pretty lethal campaign setting...

[Draco18s]

Oh god, my RPG group.  I would have to ban slightly more than half of them.  As it is, I just shy away from the campaigns that...uh, anyone else in the group runs, half the time...

We had a sufficiently large pool of prospective players to draw on at the time.  So its not like we couldn't fill the spot (I should note that both the GM and the captain were female).

But aside from that player, we've only ever banned one other person (just as silently) because he insisted in doing all of the math out loud, every time.

"I rolled a 12, my base attack is 7, I have a +2 weapon...."
"Fran!  Shut up and just give us a number!"