Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[GlyphGryph]

So I've been getting into 40k, but I've come to realize as I've done so that
a) The lore is generally pretty bland. The Orcs are alright, at least, and the Imperials have a lot of interesting stories, but overall the world seems... uninspired.
b) the aesthetic is absolutely terrible. I mean, all of the units in the game are just really ugly and boring looking, imo. (with the exception of Trygons, which are actually pretty cool looking).

Even the most "out there" forces, like the Tyranids, are pretty boring and lackink in variety, and the concept is just a rip off of the Alien and Starship Troopers, with a bit of the Necron's background thrown in for good measure. You'd think with a a whole alien biological force that pulls its genetics benefits from a million worlds across several galaxies, they could manage something a little bit creative, but its mostly just humanoids with armor and spikes (like, you know, every other force in the game), except with scythe arms. Oh, and some nagas with scythe arms. At least when Blizzard used them to make the Zerg they managed to make a few units that didn't look yawn-worthy.

And the gameplay is surprisingly complex and time consuming for being as shallow as it is. I actually do enjoy it for the most part though, so not really a huge complaint. (and the rules are generally amenable to ... fixing)

Plus, its a bit pricey.

Looking through the history, the first edition or two (like Rogue Trader) seemed a lot more fun, interesting, and varied, but that may just be bias on the part of those talking about it as I don't have much experience with that stuff.

But I'm not here to complain - I'm here to ask, what else is out there? What other miniatures games would people recommend?

[Detrevni|inverteD]

Have you tried Warhammer fantasy? From what I know, it's alot more colourful and imaginative than the bleak dark Gothic of the war torn 40th millennia, and if you enjoyed the tabletop of 40K then from what I've been told the fantasy is similar, albeit on a larger scale.

[Dakk]

Warhammer fantasy was much better gameplay wise then GRIMDARK GOFFIC SPACE EMPIURS 40k. Plus it has dwarves. The player community is also much better and has alot less silly obnoxious fat people who play blood angels everytime. Hell, 40k players consider hiding small creatures behind a tank while you advance to be a complex strategy.

[nenjin]

Wow, so much hate.

Try War Machine, I've heard good things as it compares. It's cheaper than 40k, too. No idea about the flavor. It's more mecha combat than space opera with swords.

[Omegastick]

Flames of War! It's an epic game with 15mm models that actually plays very similarly to 40k in terms of rules. That's where the similarities end. It is set in WW2 and has all the factions involved in the war (At least, will do in a month or two, the Chinese and New Zealish are being added very soon). It is incredibly strategic and is also cheap (with a tank being about £7.50). The players are always fun and mature unlike that of 40k or even Fantasy and the games can be easily tailored to fit any timeframe or interest (So you can play pretty much any sort of mission you want with just the main rulebook). The only downside is that players are rare in comparison to 40k and Fantasy (players are about as common as RPG players).

In general it is an astounding game that is very fun to play, you should try it!

[GlyphGryph]

I've actually been reading some history, and the original 40k was apparently intended to be a lot more freeform, player guided, home-rules supportive than the current player base treats it as.

I'm looking at war machine now - I think I've seen... yes, got it! These are the people that do Hordes (which apparently has the same rules and the same setting but happens in a different place?). Some of them look pretty cool, anyways. Any idea how the mechanics work?

The one benefit for switching at this point is that so far my favorite thing to do has been to build terrain, so I haven't wasted much time or any money on 40k stuff before getting disillusioned.

Its weird that it seems like such a big market but its so dominated by one company.

I might look into warhammer fantasy and Flames of War this week - get that miniatures software running on my comptuer and give it a go electronically and whatnot, assuming they have modules.

so if anyone is willing to show me the ropes for that or anything else with a Vassal module, I'd be interested.

also, the hate was mostly because I'd heard so many good things about it, and i got all psyched up, and I plowed through the rulebooks, and played the first game, and then I just sort of realized "this is not actually a good game, or story, and these pieces are a kind of crappy looking, and the terrifying tyranid menace is kind of blah (thats the race I wanted to play). It was just... surprisingly dissapointing. I wanted so much for it to be as good as everyone said it was, and I just couldn't see what was so great about it. It's not really bad. It's even good. It just seems awfully... mediocre, for the fervor it seems to illicit in people.

[nenjin]

also, the hate was mostly because I'd heard so many good things about it, and i got all psyched up, and I plowed through the rulebooks, and played the first game, and then I just sort of realized "this is not actually a good game, or story, and these pieces are a kind of crappy looking, and the terrifying tyranid menace is kind of blah (thats the race I wanted to play). It was just... surprisingly dissapointing. I wanted so much for it to be as good as everyone said it was, and I just couldn't see what was so great about it. It's not really bad. It's even good. It just seems awfully... mediocre, for the fervor it seems to illicit in people.

The setting is to taste which is why I didn't dive down anyone's throat for not liking it. I grew up with WHFB, and 40k, so it's pretty ingrained in my psyche.

Tyranids used to be cooler looking until they revamped the whole model set to look more cartoony.

And the reason people like 40k is because it allows them to get into a world where it's ok to hate everyone else. Seriously. That's the major appeal of 40k. As humans you're allowed to have an unreasonable hatred of everyone. As Chaos, you get to be the cackling evil toady bent on universal destruction. As Eldar, you get to think everyone is inferior. As orks, you get to be A-political while still shooting everyone in the face. As Necrons, you don't even have to make noise...The flavor text implies it, but the fiction makes it utterly clear...the 40k universe is morally gray. Nothing is true, everything is permitted. There's an inherent appeal in that, even if in meta sometimes the game uses too many spikes, too many Space Marines and too much GRIMDARK. 

I could disagree with a lot of your interpretations, but you're a brand new player and I've been playing or enjoying the franchise for over a decade now. So refuting stuff like "it's not a good story, not a good game...." is pretty much a pointless exercise. There's volumes on 40k that you don't know, but there's no real point in trying to convince someone their gut reaction is misguided. The models have gotten cartoonier, and the game continually gets more expensive to play. Those are my only real gripes with 40k. Personally, I love the Imperium backstory. I also don't know what the current core rule books read like, but I do remember I enjoyed reading every revision less. Between 2nd and 3rd ed of 40k is where I found the flavor the best. Now it seems like GWS is continually trying to streamline their world and their rules and it's having a detrimental impact on the game and the flavor. Tau. Blah.

If you don't like at least a little cheese with your setting, GWS games are never going to be for you. The game is NOT fun IMO if you don't have some attachment to the setting. The reason I enjoy Space Marines (and yes, I play Blood Angels, and no, I'm not overweight) is because I enjoy watching heavily armed zealots running out to die in the name of their Corpse God. If I didn't like the setting, I probably would have never continued paying attention to the game.

Also, 4+ player battles on epic terrain is damn fun, and where the game really shines. The standard 1v1 on a dinner table is where the game falls flatest. (For 40k anyways.)

And I guess in the end, because I've played over 5 core games using GWS's basic rule system...I find it all generally works, specific mechanics aside. And I'll say without hesitation, if you've played a game of Mordheim and don't think it's a good game, you don't know what good gaming is.

[Farce]

I'm not a wargame player, but I have to say, WHF is really, really awesome looking.  Also it has Skaven.  Skaven are great.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[GlyphGryph]

Nenjin, you'll notice in my opening post I pretty much made an exception for the Imperials lore wise. They have a lot of stuff and its really very good from what I've seen. Conceptually, the Orcs are pretty good to, in my opinion.

I'm mostly upset that the tyranid and necron story stuff are just so... dumb. Even after the relative difficult of suspending disbelief considering the pretty terrible motivations both groups have, since I much prefer to play as creatures rather than humans.

About a day after I started getting disenfranchies, I started getting into the tyranid cultist stuff, and was about to get excited again ... when I learned they'd completely cut that out, and I'd have to back to earlier editions if I wanted to use them (or make up my own rules, at which point I'm back to why am I buying someone else's game at all since I've been doing homebrew miniatures games since I was 6. The whole point of playing someone elses is so that I don't HAVE to, and so the other players can't blame balance problems on me).

I actually DO like the setting as a whole, I just think a lot of the stuff, especially the newer stuff is really uninspired. I have a feeling if I'd started playing it maybe 10 years ago, I would have had a hell of a lot more fun with it and maybe even loved it.

EDITED TO ADD:
Also, rat guy in previous post? Awesome.

[nenjin]

Yeah, as I said, my enjoyment with the series has dropped over the years, as GWS tries to continually modernize the franchise. They're targeting younger age groups than they used to, which means the writing gets looser and uses simpler words, (some) art gets less graphic, and other stuff. When they totally rearranged army organization after 3rd edition, doing stuff like splitting Chaos into 3? armies, I basically swore off playing.

You can probably find some 2nd and 3rd ed gamers at war gaming shops, and GWS usually lets you back order a ton of stuff. (Although I doubt they're pulling out 2nd ed molds to press figs anymore.)

Still, I enjoy most of GWS worlds, and if you find an army you like, it makes it easier to ignore everything else going on you don't like. Plus I read a ton of 40k fiction, which keeps me attached to the setting even after all the revisions.

If you're going to play GWS stuff, I really suggest trying a lot of their splinter games. Kill Squad for 40k (which is a different ruleset of current 40k), Mordheim, Necromunda, some other discontinued titles...enjoying 40k is like loving the Mustang and having to sit through every redesign Ford decides to do. It pisses you off, but you still love the Mustang so you have to at least acknowledge the presence of the new ones.

[Josephus]

Wow, so much hate.

Try War Machine, I've heard good things as it compares. It's cheaper than 40k, too. No idea about the flavor. It's more mecha combat than space opera with swords.

I dunno, if he has a problem aesthetically with WH40k, War Machine might also be a bit of a turnoff.

Also, steampunk wizards in giant mecha, hell yes.

[Dakk]

I have to admit 40k orks are pretty badass. To the point they travel through the warp without any shield, so basicaly every daemon that catches sight of their ship can raid it. Their answer? It makes the trip less boring.

[nenjin]

IIRC, Orks don't produce signatures in the Warp the way humans do. I.e. Daemons tend to ignore Orks in the warp, so the only thing they have to worry about is going off course.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

IIRC, Orks don't produce signatures in the Warp the way humans do. I.e. Daemons tend to ignore Orks in the warp, so the only thing they have to worry about is going off course.

That implies they have a course to begin with, and aren't just randomly wandering around looking for shit to kill...

[nenjin]

Orks be dum, but I dun tink dey be dat dum.

I've never read the 40k ork codecies, so maybe it's covered there. I assume they use weird boyz as an ork version of a lodestone in the warp, or something.