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Author Topic: The human race needs a mega-project.  (Read 32033 times)

andrea

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Re: The human race needs a mega-project.
« Reply #165 on: September 09, 2010, 02:47:08 pm »

besides, even if the mass is finite isn't it calculated by G(m1*m2)/r^2? if r approaches 0, and mass is still the same finite number,  wouldn't the force approach infinite? that would usually be a non existent problem, but when a singularity is formed, r at the surface IS 0.
(of course, we can't divide by 0. But black holes don't care much about our physics and mathematics.)


edit: once again, I am not an expert. I just finished high school and that is all. Due to summer effects I am not even sure I can remember what I learnt

Virex

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Re: The human race needs a mega-project.
« Reply #166 on: September 09, 2010, 03:18:52 pm »

That's gravity, not mas. Gravity AT the singularity is supposed to be infinite (though quantum gravity might contradict this, but that theory doesn't work yet), but any sensible measurements will be done at a distance r>0 from the singularity, and there the gravity isn't infinite :P



Ah, but the gravity isn't infinite, since the object has a finite mass. Pressure is obviously always infinite, since you have infinite density object in a finite density environment.

Hm, how can a singularity form in the first place? As pressure approaches infinity, wouldn't it eventually match the gravity's pull and leave the matter hanging midway between black hole centre and event horizon?
But there is no pressure. The only characteristics the black hole retains of it's parent star, are mass, angular momentum, electric charge.(it's called the No Hair principle)
The collapsing star undergoes a number of steps - the gravity needs to be strong enough to overcome radiation pressure first, which happens when too much of heavy elements accumulated in the stellar core; then there's the electron degenerancy pressure, when atoms are squeezed so close together that the Pauli's exclusion principle(that no two identical fermions, e.g. electrons, protons, neutrons; but not e.g. photons; can occupy the same "spot") acting on free electrons becomes the main factor preventing matter from moving any closer. At this point, the classical gas pressure stops being accountable for.

It should be noted that at this point, one can in fact compress the matter further, but to do so, one needs to move fermions into higher energy states, hence the energy required to compress the mater stems from the energy needed to increase the energy level of the constituent material.
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With high enough mass, the electrons in the degenerate matter are so energetic, that they can combine with protons to create neutrons, and the result is a neutron star, where the pressure is provided by Pauli's exclusion principle acting on neutrons. The neutron star is much smaller, as there are no more energetic electrons filling the space between the nuclei and keeping them farther apart. The electron degenerancy pressure dissapears.

Remember however that neutrons also fermions. Thus at this point, one will end up with a sea of neutrons all trying to occupy the same spot but failing because they have the same energy. Again adding energy will shove some neutrons into a higher energy state, but as this increases the density, it decreases the radius of the object. as well as add some pressure because the neutron's trying to get back into it's previous energy state and the other neutrons would need to make place for it. At some point gravity starts scaling faster then pressure and you get a runaway reaction in which presumably the neutrons lose their identity (possibly because they are in such high energy states that they get torn apart or start recombining) and the next stage starts (assuming we don't get quark-degenerate matter in which the quarks are in each other's way preventing further collapse):
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If the mass is high enough, the collapse isn't stopped by neutron degenerancy pressure, and the star collapses further, the surface gravity becoming high enough to prevent light from escaping, and we have a black hole.
The point is, once the consecutively appearing "pressures" are overcame, these stop acting any further. Once the last line of defence is broken, there is no more resistance preventing the collapse towards a singularity.

The density of a singularity is infinite, but there is no infinite, or any pressure at all.

I wouldn't claim that so fast. There is no net pressure because gravity scales faster then pressure in this regime, but that doesn't mean the singularity isn't unstable under non-gravitational conditions (probably even the opposite). It should also be noted that for a frame of reference at an infinite distance away, matter forming a black hole will, while collapsing, cause such strong time dilatation effects that it seems to approach the event horizon at an asymptotic rate. At the same time, light coming from the matter will be red-shifted more and more, eventually reaching undetectable frequencies (there are currently no detectors capable of detecting radiation of a frequency of once per millennium for example) and gradually the black hole becomes undetectable. As one approaches the black hole, the frame of reference changes so that one will eventually pass the event horizon from one's own frame of reference. Someone at an infinite distance will however see you approach the black hole asymptoticly just as happened with the constituent matter.[/quote]
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 03:20:28 pm by Virex »
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JoshuaFH

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Re: The Blackhole Thread
« Reply #167 on: September 09, 2010, 03:38:38 pm »

Can we just rename this the Blackhole thread already?
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: The human race needs a mega-project.
« Reply #168 on: September 09, 2010, 03:40:29 pm »

I motion we stop discussing black holes untill Vector comes back with the math and makes our heads explode.
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Gunner-Chan

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Re: The CHARISMA thread.
« Reply #169 on: September 09, 2010, 03:41:31 pm »

I think this should become the CHARISMA thread.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: The human race needs a mega-project.
« Reply #170 on: September 09, 2010, 03:46:40 pm »

Quote from: Virex
*ironing out Palazzo's ramblings*
Somebody who knows the stuff properly, at last.
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Virex

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Re: The human race needs a mega-project.
« Reply #171 on: September 09, 2010, 04:01:07 pm »

Quote from: Virex
*ironing out Palazzo's ramblings*
Somebody who knows the stuff properly, at last.


Would seem so, but it's not my field of study and I don't know anything about the math involved (ask your local university-grade physics student for that). It's just a question of knowing a bit of gravity and quantum mechanics (in the case of degenerate mater), lots of common sense and wikipedia :P
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Vector

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Re: The human race needs a mega-project.
« Reply #172 on: September 09, 2010, 04:43:07 pm »

I'll help however I can, but it's going to take a couple of days, at the very least... and really, guys, it would help to have some sort of idea as to what you want to know.  Are we trying to make singularities?  Understand how singularities form from black holes?  Understand how black holes work?

Point me towards the math and I'll do what I can =)
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Il Palazzo

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Re: The human race needs a mega-project.
« Reply #173 on: September 09, 2010, 05:06:26 pm »

I'll help however I can, but it's going to take a couple of days, at the very least... and really, guys, it would help to have some sort of idea as to what you want to know.  Are we trying to make singularities?  Understand how singularities form from black holes?  Understand how black holes work?

Point me towards the math and I'll do what I can =)
As somebody mentioned a moment ago, the main point of concern is the question of how can a singularity shed it's event horizon.
The wiki page, as well as e.g. this article(http://iopscience.iop.org/1742-6596/31/1/054/pdf/jpconf6_31_054.pdf) are ridden with magical words like Kerr metrics, hocus-pokus-dimensions, null dust, and whatnot.
Look at Virex's description of what's going on during the stellar collapse - all understandable on purely qualitative terms, and without the need for a very advanced physics knowledge.
You try looking up the naked singularities, and it all begins to sound like a total mumbo-jumbo. The mathematical terms are so technical, that it's difficult to even judge if the theory is purely abstract(as in, some special case of some shady equation, that's unlikely to have any relation to reality etc.) or not.

That said, while I hold your geekdom in high esteem, I don't think you'd be able to just jump to this problem without getting a hang of general relativity, singularity formation models, and whatever else is necessary, which might be too much.
Still, prove me wrong, if you wish to do so.
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Eagleon

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Re: The human race needs a mega-project.
« Reply #174 on: September 09, 2010, 05:38:03 pm »

A wizard did it.
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Vector

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Re: The human race needs a mega-project.
« Reply #175 on: September 09, 2010, 05:44:11 pm »

It really isn't that bad, man... as I said, I'll do my best.  The language really isn't that technical.
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ECrownofFire

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Re: The human race needs a mega-project.
« Reply #176 on: September 09, 2010, 05:47:46 pm »

General relativity isn't actually all that complicated. I did a project on it in 9th grade. It was fun. What's confusing is when you start tossing in reality-bending things like black holes. They really mess things up, for a long time people didn't even believe they existed. In fact you can probably find some black hole deniers today, maybe.

(There's a pun in there somewhere.)
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: The human race needs a mega-project.
« Reply #177 on: September 09, 2010, 05:50:58 pm »

Yeah, I've ran into more than one Black Hole Denier. One of them even said that they thought black holes were really just blinds in space used by humans having time traveled from the future to keep us from seeing them. He also claimed there was "no evidence" that black holes as we know them exist.

I was stupid overloaded out of a coherent response.
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ECrownofFire

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Re: The human race needs a mega-project.
« Reply #178 on: September 09, 2010, 05:57:09 pm »

We should toss the non-believers into a black hole. Let's see you deny the existence of something that's spaghettifying you.
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Realmfighter

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Re: The human race needs a mega-project.
« Reply #179 on: September 09, 2010, 06:01:02 pm »

And we they come back with future lasers, you will all burn.
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