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[HailFire]

Does anyone get the feeling that when the next season of this starts, we should work out precisely what version of who we're using and what their equipment/abilities are beforehand, so we don't have to deal with things such as possible rules infractions on-the-fly? Anyone? 

Related, who else can't wait for the next season of this? I've been working out an ironclad new team for a while now. 

[ed boy]

Does anyone get the feeling that when the next season of this starts, we should work out precisely what version of who we're using and what their equipment/abilities are beforehand, so we don't have to deal with things such as possible rules infractions on-the-fly?

That would be ideal, but the arguments and reasoning that are involved in defining the specifics of one or two characters at once can get pretty convoluted. If it were to be done beforehand, then there are two main ways of doing it
-all at once. If you do it all at once, though, that's thirty-two such arguments going on at once, and I simply wouldn't be able to keep up, as would most people.
-A couple at a time. But if you're doing it a couple at a time, you might as well get the first round of matches done at the same time as well, which is what is being done.

[Pandarsenic]

Forgive me for not knowing much about Dune, but how close is the shield to his body? If it is any further than half a foot away from his body then Ezio could easily use the hidden blade to get him. Stealth assassinations often involve simply touching the enemy and then activating the hidden blade.

Also, how fast can Paul react to the poison? There is about a two second delay before the poison takes complete control of the target, after which the target wildly flails about their weapon/fists and follows to die. It is assumed that in this time the target is completely incapable of controlling his body, never mind his metabolism.

Also, in response to Paul hiding in a room until Ezio reveals himself then surely Ezio can just camp outside with food until Paul starves to death or falls asleep; at which point the winner is clear.

Finally, a user said earlier that Ezio would just keep hitting the shield harder in the hopes of it breaking. There are several problems with that:

1. If that were the case then we have to assume that Paul doesn't know about Ezio's equipment either. Therefore, Ezio can use his rather huge arsenal of weapons and distractions (smoke bombs, poison, etc.) without Paul's knowing.

2. I'm going out on a limb and assuming that Paul can't resist poison that he doesn't know is in his system. There are no nerves in the body for detecting poison and as such it would require psychic abilities to know about the poison and protect against it in under two seconds.

3. Ezio isn't stupid, he would know (after hitting it harder) that his attacks aren't doing anything and as such would try a different tactic.

4. Ezio (with Altair's armour) could take way more than five hits. Have you ever stood in the middle of a crowd of angry guards in the game and seen how long you can go for. You can take fifteen-ish hits before going into a state where you have to take some medicine to survive, at which point you can take another seven hits for each vial of medicine! Five hits would do nothing more than scratch Ezio.

1: Ah, but those are things that Paul able to expect and adapt to, even without knowledge of them. Besides, before he takes the Water of Life, he's already prescient - just not perfectly omniscient, like he is after. He takes the Water of Life because he found the prescience insufficient at the time.

2: I'm not sure what part of

Bene Gesserit Prana/Bindu control means that Paul is basically the unquestioned master of his body down to a molecular level. If he's conscious, he's immune to poison.

was unclear. Hell, I'm not even sure if he'd have to be conscious; a lot of Bene Gesserit keep suppressed diseases in their body so they can use them as weapons against others if need be.

3: Like what? Who would think that attacking less forcefully would solve the problem of the shield? That's a completely counter-intuitive strategy if you don't know exactly what's happening.

4: Then use the Gom Jabbar, since it has a poison so potent that even the Bene Gesserit don't want to fuck with having it in them. Barring that, I figure we're not going to take the wonky physics of the origin game because then we would have to go back and go "WELL TIDUS CAN BE HIT 4386720469730909438 TIMES AND THEN MAX POTION TO FULL HEALTH" and "OH YEAH WELL STRELOK CAN CARRY INSTANT-USE MEDKITS" and it all goes to hell. Saying Ezio can take dozens of sword strikes and keep going, particularly if he takes his Magic Medicine, would be ridiculous.

All of which is moot points because Ezio is unlikely to be able to hit Paul anyway.

[Virex]

Erm, pre-emperor Paul wouldn't have access to the Gom Jabar because that's only available to people with an important position within the Bene Geserit order.

Interesting points on the shields not respecting forces properly (such as slowing a fall). How does momentum work? For example, If I were to drive a car into someone who had a shield activated, would they be sent flying, or would they remain stationary and the car crumple around them?

I don't feel like digging trough 3 books to figure out if the force are completely nullified, but it's clear from the fight scenes that the full force is not transfered trough the shield. It's not possible to pound an opponent into submission, you have to trick him into making a wrong move so you can strike before he can deflect your attack with his weapons. Plus, Paul mentioned you'd need the energy output of a small duchy (can be anything from the size of France to the size of the entire earth) to disable a shield and explosives aren't used in the Dune universe (Even not against large targets such as a shielded building.) Judging from that I'd say that a powerful impact wouldn't do much to the one within the shield.

[HailFire]

I don't feel like digging trough 3 books to figure out if the force are completely nullified, but it's clear from the fight scenes that the full force is not transfered trough the shield. It's not possible to pound an opponent into submission, you have to trick him into making a wrong move so you can strike before he can deflect your attack with his weapons. Plus, Paul mentioned you'd need the energy output of a small duchy (can be anything from the size of France to the size of the entire earth) to disable a shield and explosives aren't used in the Dune universe (Even not against large targets such as a shielded building.) Judging from that I'd say that a powerful impact wouldn't do much to the one within the shield.

That's not what was being asked.

What's being asked here is "Are people in Holtzman fields subject to knockback?", which is something I'm also very much interested in.

ED: Fixed and restored quote, because that second half does give some hope to the other contestants- a Holtzman shield can be shorted out, you just need an exceptionally large amount of energy to do so.


ED2 since I don't feel like double-posting:

That would be ideal, but the arguments and reasoning that are involved in defining the specifics of one or two characters at once can get pretty convoluted. If it were to be done beforehand, then there are two main ways of doing it
-all at once. If you do it all at once, though, that's thirty-two such arguments going on at once, and I simply wouldn't be able to keep up, as would most people.
-A couple at a time. But if you're doing it a couple at a time, you might as well get the first round of matches done at the same time as well, which is what is being done.

I would posit that the first would work, if this all occurs at the time of character submission- it's the best time for weeding out ambiguity and possible rules violations, since it's before the thread really gets rolling, and you don't have to worry about rolling back anything:

-When someone posts a character submission, they (in addition to the source link) should give a summary as to exactly what the character's powers are capable of, and provide a list of that character's equipment, along with a brief outline as to their equipment's powers. If the character has multiple options for equipment and gadgets (e.g. Strelok), they should propose a loadout for that character.

-If someone disagrees to a proposed loadout for a character, they should propose an alternate one, and debate should be carried out in appropriately marked spoilers until a decision is reached.

[Virex]

I don't feel like digging trough 3 books to figure out if the force are completely nullified, but it's clear from the fight scenes that the full force is not transfered trough the shield. It's not possible to pound an opponent into submission, you have to trick him into making a wrong move so you can strike before he can deflect your attack with his weapons. Plus, Paul mentioned you'd need the energy output of a small duchy (can be anything from the size of France to the size of the entire earth) to disable a shield and explosives aren't used in the Dune universe (Even not against large targets such as a shielded building.) Judging from that I'd say that a powerful impact wouldn't do much to the one within the shield.

That's not what was being asked.

What's being asked here is "Are people in Holtzman fields subject to knockback?", which is something I'm also very much interested in.

The books are not conclusive on that.
(Also if you want to kill someone inside a Holtzman field, suffocating or poisoning works pretty well)

[lemon10]

How does suffocating work against someone in a shield, if you are able to get through the shield to choke them, you could slowly stab them with a knife if you want to.
And poisoning would have no effect because of his ability to negate poisons.

And 2 quote from the dune wiki, which strongly implies that shields are possible to have on all the time

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Shields can be calibrated to permit the passage of matter below given speeds. This is vital in personal defense shields, as one would suffocate within a shield that did not admit atmospheric gasses. Depending on the shield's setting, the object's speed while passing through the shield would range from six to nine centimeters per second. (shows sheild let air through, so no suffocation).
With the widespread use of shields, anyone of even minimal importance wore a body shield to protect against criminals, assassins, and accidents. Such a practice made the use of projectile weapons and thrown blades virtually obsolete. The only effective combat method was the deft use and careful precision of a handheld dagger, if moved slowly enough. New styles of fencing and knife fighting were developed to take advantage of this one small vulnerability.

Sheilds are used as anti-assasination devices, and as such are useless unless they ARE on all the time, infact (someone with the book correct me if im wrong), i remember the baron had one one that slowed air diffusion of poison gas, meaning that he indeed did have it on all the time.

Also, yes, disabling shields is pretty much impossible, as it requires a shire size static generator, something that would have to be made specifically for the task of disabling the shield (so explosives would be of little use), and which would be impossible to carry through the doorway

also, it is a bit too late now, but i totally agree, when the characters are proposed their abilities and equipment should be specified, to avoid this problem.

and finally where is paul right now? his powers depend on his stage: pre dune he has no prescience and good combat training, before taking the water of life (but with the freemen) he has limited prescience, and post water of life he has pretty much complete prescience.
I think its pretty fair to put him in the second catagorey, which i think would allow him to know when ezio would try to sneak up on him so he wouldn't be able to assassinate him.

[ragnarok97071]

Here's I figure it:
Either we have them both at the beginning of their appearences, or the ends.
If the former, then it would be pretty even. except for the fact that Paul can just run Ezio over with a sandworm.
The latter... well. kinda hard to assassinate someone when they know exactly what your going to do before you do.
either way, Paul would most likely win.

[Omegastick]

@Ragnarok

Former, firstly the size of the door comes into question. The second thing is that Ezio is first seen as an almost born foetus.

Latter, Ezio has the powers of the PoEs which have some awesome effects (mind control, telekinesis, a weird form of omniscience, etc.) a lot of undocumented ones.

[lemon10]

He couldn't use a worm, even if he could take it through the gate, it would be unable to survive or move in on the island since there is too much moisture and not enough sand.
im pretty sure ezio wouldn't be able to sneak up on paul since he is rather observant, and if paul sees ezio he would just shoot him, so its not really even no matter what happens

also, looking on ezio's assasin creed wiki page, there is nothing about his godly descent or his magic powers. so either find a source/more info about his abilities, otherwise i don't see how he could use them in a fight

[Virex]

im pretty sure ezio wouldn't be able to sneak up on paul since he is rather observant, and if paul sees ezio he would just shoot him, so its not really even no matter what happens

Shoot with what? There are no ranged weapons in Dune beyond lasguns (very dangerous to someone who also has a shield with him) and stun weapons (bullets go slow enough to be dodged or parried by someone who has been trained well enough)

[Omegastick]

*Sigh* The information is all on the wiki, just most of it applies to many people do it's not on Ezio's page. Evidence for the 'Magic powers' is here: http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Piece_of_Eden#Abilities. Ezio's godly descent is just a few paragraphs below in the resistances section, although Ezio himself never resists any of the PoEs himself (he uses The Apples to resist The Staff at one point) he is a descendant of Altair who resisted The Apple with no help and therefore is of godly descent (they are the hybrid between gods and humans).

while at least one provided an impenetrable barrier, that would protect the wearer from any attempt at penetration[1].

This is the most important one, essentially making the user invulnerable (only another PoE can counter it).

The Apple (or possibly a different PoE, but probably The Apple) gives the user infinite knowledge whenever it used, and as such provides omniscience.

Ezio at the end of the game would undoubtedly win the fight because of these artefacts.

Ezio at the beginning of the game would lose because he is an unborn foetus.

Mid game would be a 50/50 contest in my opinion, seeing as they are very equally matched.

P.S. Pwnd

[Virex]

Why do those artifacts do exactly what a holtzman shield and the water of life do, but then better?
Plus we already established that a truly impenetrable barrier would suffocate the user (unless you want to argue that Ezio is immune to that argument?)
Edit: total obedience and perceived miracles: Bene Geserit's do that all the time. Only artifacts that don't have a mirror in Dune are those that changes the time line...

[lemon10]

what PoE's does ezio posses, and at what stages in the game?
also, apparently the PoE's mind control by neurotransmitters in the heads, something that paul wouldn't have because he is from another universe, the ones that warp reality and create illusions however would still work.

and ezio would be from when you first play him, AFTER he is a foetus, otherwise its just silly

[ragnarok97071]

also, Ezio does not have any POEs. He dropped the only one he had (The apple, which Paul could probably see through, as he uses prescience for sight) before the end of the game. Stop saying "Ezio wins because he has the pieces of eden".